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Deal or Not New lathe
- Thread starter Swharfin'
- Start date
Chipper5783
Well-Known Member
Buying from a dealer - a very reasonable option. I bought my Enterprise lathe from Modern Tool (January 1983), they took care of a number of details so everything went smoothly. Sure, I paid full price, but I had a good running, well dressed machine that has s
Swharfin'
Out to pasture Red Seal Millwright
Thanks Tom I appreciate your comments that's why I registered on this site. I get to gain/learn from the collective knowledge base.
True it's not a great deal as compared to smaller sized machines. but for King Model; KC-1440ml-2/km-054 there neck and neck spec wise other than YUWE doesn't mention a faceplate or a 4 jaw which isn't an issue at present I wouldn't buy a taper attachment I prefer using a boring head in the tailstock. the swing over the gap is 20' according to the specs King doesn't offer a gap bed ,last quote king cost more. by $3k which I consider too much for a 8"four jaw, taper attachment and CSA approval. IMHO
I didn't buy a taper attachment on my (97 vintage Taiwan) King 14x40 & very much regret it. At the time I was naive & assumed I could just buy the rear slider bar assembly & bolt it on when the time came. But there is typically more to it than that (depending on the lathe). For majority of machines in this class, it involves an entirely different (telescoping) leadscrew, nut & disengagement configuration. So to 'upgrade' my lathe requires a bunch more parts vs having it configured with taper attachment from the get-go. It was a bad move on my part because these parts are now both rare & expensive. Many of the current lathes come standard with taper attachment which is a good thing IMO.
Yes, you can displace your tailstock over in the classic offset method. But every time you do this, you have go back to square 1 to re-establish TS / spindle center again which is very important for most things we do - drilling, reaming, tapping etc. Even with alignment bar & DTI it takes some time to get it perfect again, but also a function of the lathe. I prefer to zero the TS & leave it there for as long as possible, but personal opinion. Also the TS offset method only sets an angle for that particular length of stock. If you insert a bar of slightly different length, the resultant taper angle will be different & so you are back to re-establishing taper angle. Whereas a taper attachment preserves an angle & you can make multiple parts with identical taper regardless of length. There are other pros & cons, but these are the main ones.
Yes, you can displace your tailstock over in the classic offset method. But every time you do this, you have go back to square 1 to re-establish TS / spindle center again which is very important for most things we do - drilling, reaming, tapping etc. Even with alignment bar & DTI it takes some time to get it perfect again, but also a function of the lathe. I prefer to zero the TS & leave it there for as long as possible, but personal opinion. Also the TS offset method only sets an angle for that particular length of stock. If you insert a bar of slightly different length, the resultant taper angle will be different & so you are back to re-establishing taper angle. Whereas a taper attachment preserves an angle & you can make multiple parts with identical taper regardless of length. There are other pros & cons, but these are the main ones.
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+1 on taper attachment. didn't think I'd use it, but sure handy when I need it -- wouldn't want to retro fit it later. The integration with cross-slide makes tapers a measure-n-go event -- one clamp to tighten.
It does appear the King has eliminated the gap after 2019? There was no mention of it in the spec sheet, but these are typically pretty minimal at the best of times. But in the parts breakdown I noticed this note.
http://files.kingcanada.com/catalog/products/servicemanualxm/KC-1440ML-2_KM-054 service manual.pdf
http://files.kingcanada.com/catalog/products/servicemanualxm/KC-1440ML-2_KM-054 service manual.pdf
Attachments
Just for price comparison the Modern C0636 comes with DRO, 3 and 4 jaw chucks, faceplate, taper attachment, and a piston style quick change tool post. Plus shipping to your door is included.
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same guy delivered mine. 
Steering wheel on the left, stick shift on the right, speedometer in the middle. Obviously a domestic model LOL
JC, when you've visited Modern in Edmonton, have you ever seen this SunMaster? model on the floor? I'm afraid to ask how much, but I was just curious. I think it has mechanical traverse disengagement & some other features. Lotto649 budget item.
https://www.moderntool.com/products/modern-14-swing-40-between-centers-ml-1440v-ml-1440vs-lathe-2/
JC, when you've visited Modern in Edmonton, have you ever seen this SunMaster? model on the floor? I'm afraid to ask how much, but I was just curious. I think it has mechanical traverse disengagement & some other features. Lotto649 budget item.
https://www.moderntool.com/products/modern-14-swing-40-between-centers-ml-1440v-ml-1440vs-lathe-2/
No but I talked to Dave about it. They are more than $25,000, made in Taiwan and very high quality. They will special order only. He told me the only sales they had were to some schools.
KBC sells an RML under the Kent USA brand name.
https://www.kbctools.ca/itemdetail/6-273-050-N
$31,000
KBC sells an RML under the Kent USA brand name.
https://www.kbctools.ca/itemdetail/6-273-050-N
$31,000
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I believe the TL series of lathes sold by PM are made by Sunmaster without the electronic variable speed.
https://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/pm-tlseries-ultra-precision-lathes/
https://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/pm-tlseries-ultra-precision-lathes/
Ah yes. The PM (TL-1640) is what BasementShopGuy has been reviewing. Drool.
https://www.youtube.com/user/BasementShopGuy/videos
https://www.youtube.com/user/BasementShopGuy/videos
Some really nice features on that machine like this.
Do you guys know how that Apron stop ACTUALLY works? Because I don’t.
Here is my suspicion:
If the clutch is integral to the carriage, the apron stops because the clutch slips, not because the feed actually disengages. Just looking at that metal plate with the slots in it, it sure does not seem to have any connection to any feed levers and such.
Why am I so suspicious? The feed engagement mechanism needs to be of different design in order to facilitate an auto feed trip. You can’t very well use straight spur gears for the engagement/disengagement as they may not release under load. I suppose the clutch will slip, and no damage is done.
The way Colchester does it (yes, it also has a clutch to protect the feed shaft), they use a worm gear/wheel combo with over center springs and a trip pin which is activated by the stop. The worm gear/wheel combo can easily be disengaged under the heaviest of loads. It is like night and day compared to say the spur gear set-up on the Standard Moderns. Using the SMs, I have adopted the habit of “helping” the carriage feed with the hand wheel as I am approaching the stop. Feel for the feed lever pressure to “unload”, and disengage. It’s like driving a standard gear box without synchromesh - you have to feel for the gears to mesh, otherwise it sounds like a rock crusher. (Sorry I just dated myself with that gearbox shifting comment... “if you can’t find them, grind them”).
Anyway, I am just curious how they actually do the stop. I have seen other manufacturers advertise the same feature...
Here is my suspicion:
If the clutch is integral to the carriage, the apron stops because the clutch slips, not because the feed actually disengages. Just looking at that metal plate with the slots in it, it sure does not seem to have any connection to any feed levers and such.
Why am I so suspicious? The feed engagement mechanism needs to be of different design in order to facilitate an auto feed trip. You can’t very well use straight spur gears for the engagement/disengagement as they may not release under load. I suppose the clutch will slip, and no damage is done.
The way Colchester does it (yes, it also has a clutch to protect the feed shaft), they use a worm gear/wheel combo with over center springs and a trip pin which is activated by the stop. The worm gear/wheel combo can easily be disengaged under the heaviest of loads. It is like night and day compared to say the spur gear set-up on the Standard Moderns. Using the SMs, I have adopted the habit of “helping” the carriage feed with the hand wheel as I am approaching the stop. Feel for the feed lever pressure to “unload”, and disengage. It’s like driving a standard gear box without synchromesh - you have to feel for the gears to mesh, otherwise it sounds like a rock crusher. (Sorry I just dated myself with that gearbox shifting comment... “if you can’t find them, grind them”).
Anyway, I am just curious how they actually do the stop. I have seen other manufacturers advertise the same feature...
I'm wondering the same Rudy. We were chatting about powerfeeding & clutch on the other post. And why I was saying my own lathe ball/detent clutch is more primitive & thus maybe only for crash protection vs active machining stop. The BasementShop video shows the PM in action (Part 5 around 19:00) , so that much we know. Whether it has another independent disengagement for crash protection beyond that or the clutch is entirely responsible to provide that would be interesting to know. Maybe there is a decent parts diagram out there to decipher.
Swharfin'
Out to pasture Red Seal Millwright
Ya gotta like that feeling I have time to look around can't get concrete in the shop till spring. They are all about the same when they're running just little differences . I think if a DNA test could to be done on them all it would be revealing. Ha! did you check on it before going to work?Just for price comparison the Modern C0636 comes with DRO, 3 and 4 jaw chucks, faceplate, taper attachment, and a piston style quick change tool post. Plus shipping to your door is included.
Dabbler
ersatz engineer
It looks like a fine deal. You can probably coeerce some tooling for no cost if you seem serious.
On the clutch issue: I dimly remember someone showing me the mechanism over 30 years ago. The rod disengages a dog clutch at the left hand side of the QCGB. Of course, it could easily be a different design, but everybody steals from everybody, so it might be the same mechanism.
One last point: at 1500 lbs it is about the same rigidity as Modern's 636, and a fine machine, but not as rigid as the heavy 1440s out there.
On the clutch issue: I dimly remember someone showing me the mechanism over 30 years ago. The rod disengages a dog clutch at the left hand side of the QCGB. Of course, it could easily be a different design, but everybody steals from everybody, so it might be the same mechanism.
One last point: at 1500 lbs it is about the same rigidity as Modern's 636, and a fine machine, but not as rigid as the heavy 1440s out there.
Yeah I gave it a good going over when I got it. Most of that info was posted in this thread.
https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.c...s-or-a-pm1440hd-from-precision-matthews.1229/