Canadian Sources for Hobbyist Quantities of Oil

[guitarchitect]

You have to be very careful using oils designated as "EP" or "extreme pressure". These have sulphur additives that will react with the copper in brass and bronze. So if you are using EP oils and have any copper, brass or bronze parts in contact with you will eventually be screwed!

The gearbox is sealed isn't it? As I noted the original spec for the gearbox oil is an EP gear oil (Mobil 600xp 100 / mobilgear 627). The 75W-80 from the PM manual appears to be as well. In doing a lot of reading on the subject yesterday I read that the reason EP oil is specified for the gearbox is that interrupted cuts constitute a shock/intermittent load on the gears so the Extreme Pressure properties are required to maintain consistent torque and not have any slipping. Similarly low speed, high load forces also require the EP properties. But I could be misremembering. Maybe I'll double check to ensure that whatever oil I get performs well on the copper strip test - the original mobilgear lists 1B as the result which is a slight tarnish and one step below the least corrosive, 1A

 

[Chicken lights]

You have to be very careful using oils designated as "EP" or "extreme pressure". These have sulphur additives that will react with the copper in brass and bronze. So if you are using EP oils and have any copper, brass or bronze parts in contact with you will eventually be screwed!

Wouldn’t that ruin synchros and thrust bearings in transmissions/transfer cases that use 80W90?

I’m confused

 

[Canadium]

Wouldn’t that ruin synchros and thrust bearings in transmissions/transfer cases that use 80W90?

I’m confused

I don't know much about transmissions and transfer cases but I have read of at least one machinist who was really pissed because he followed the manufacturers directions to use EP lubricants and they eventually destroyed his lathe prematurely. You can google it and read about the problem with EP oils yourself.

The Effects of EP Additives on Gearboxes

Oil additives offer a wide range of benefits, but in some circumstances they can actually be harmful to the machines in which they are added. For example, let’s look at worm gearboxes. These...

www.machinerylubrication.com

 

[Mcgyver]

Do these work on ball oilers???

I'd say mostly no. You don't get much pressure with the finger pump style. The end could be modified (groove in the end) and it might get some oil in there, but for ball oilers on machines you need a high pressure gun like below. The cans aren't going to work like that cylindrical pump style. Thats were you get into Craig's $80 oilers....there's some really nice Swiss ones I've been pinning for, momentarily forget the brand, but they are a lot of money.

That would be good home shop project. One that doesn't leak and has different ends for different types of oilers (some ball fittings are concave, some convex)

 

[Mcgyver]

I agree with Ian. Afaik if there are yellow metal parts in it, the recommended oil won't have sulphur as a high pressure additive. Perhaps there are other additives so they can still call it HP? If you go to an actual oil vendor (instead crappy tire or what not) they should be able to tell what oils do or don't have any sulphur if there is bronze in the machine.

One area in the machine shop to be aware of is dividing hears. Big bronze gears and plain bearings all out of bronze.

 

[Canadium]

........there's some really nice Swiss ones I've been pinning for, momentarily forget the brand, but they are a lot of money.

Wow that looks awfully familiar!!! I got the piece pictured below in a box of stuff that came with my lathe. When I first pulled it out I thought, what is this? Looks like a weird grease gun? Then I looked at the embossed "Wanner Made in Switzerland" I thought - hmmm - must be something good. But if its a grease gun how do I load it? I thought the back cap must unscrew. But dam no matter how hard I tried I couldn't get the back cap off! Well I thought pretty useless if I can't use it! But if its made in Switzerland I'm keeping it!!!

So how do you use one of these??? If its really an oiler do I refill by siphoning up oil??? Is it possible to clean out the inside???

 

[Chicken lights]

I don't know much about transmissions and transfer cases but I have read of at least one machinist who was really pissed because he followed the manufacturers directions to use EP lubricants and they eventually destroyed his lathe prematurely. You can google it and read about the problem with EP oils yourself.

The Effects of EP Additives on Gearboxes

Oil additives offer a wide range of benefits, but in some circumstances they can actually be harmful to the machines in which they are added. For example, let’s look at worm gearboxes. These...

www.machinerylubrication.com

https://rawze.com/forums/archive/index.php?thread-1913.html

I guess if you wanted to test, you could sample your non-EP oil for a year, switch to an EP oil, then see how the reports read the following year. I get my oil sample kits from a CAT dealer

 

[guitarchitect]

I can see how things get so confusing - from what I've read even in another day of casual browsing it sounds like there are a tonne of variables that most people wouldn't be able to account for, so anecdotal reports are only as good as the poster's ability to provide details. There are lots of EP additives, all used in varying quantities, making some gear oils good for lathes and some probably less-so. Can sulphur cause degredation of yellow metals? Yes, but modern blends contain anti-corrosive agents to combat this. Will it cause pitting on bushings? Maybe, but so what it that makes the gears last 2.6x longer (per the Rawze post)? I'm guessing this is why an oil like Mobilgear 627+equivalents has a Copper Strip test classification of 1B (Slight Tarnish) and not 4C (fully corroded). It seems that as long as that classification checks out the oil should be good even for brass bushings.

EDIT: Just to add as I learn more, there are two classifications for EP Additives - GL4 and GL5. GL5 has double the additives of GL4, and in cars it's generally recommended not to use it unless the manufacturer suggests it. I would guess this is why some forum users may have ruined their gearboxes, and why lathes recommend oils that do have EP additives - they are just probably moderate amounts. Seems like the safest play is a GL4.

 

[GummyMonster]

As far as a high end hand oiler, from all my reading, this cadilac one seems to be the very top shelf.
- https://www.ebay.com/itm/2625978230...=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&ufes_redirect=true

Not cheap, but should last a lifetime of hobby use.
Ken

 

[Mcgyver]

So how do you use one of these??? If its really an oiler do I refill by siphoning up oil??? Is it possible to clean out the inside???

I have ones similar looking, but don't actually have a Wanner. (just grabbed a web photo to show the general form factor) On mine the cap on the left side unscrews (as well as every other connection). Inside is a cup with a little chain you pull to remove it and then fill with oil.

Abnox was who I was thinking of, and their web site shows a grease gun and an oil gun. Not conclusive though....while yours looks like the grease gun, I have one that looks almost the same as yours and is for oil. (or maybe mine was for grease and is just being used for oil? no idea). Coincidentally I just took mine apart on the weekend, a threaded joint was leaking. They are a bit tricky as too much pressure will bend the parts. otoh, they shouldn't be that tight. A couple fabric style strap clamps might do?

ABNOX

ABNOX has been the worldwide system partner for integrated processes in dosing, lubrication and clamping technology for 75 years.

www.abnox.com

 

[guitarchitect]

Final note as I think I found the best fit - 4L Jugs for ~$25ea at Commercial Oil. Here's the product data sheet - it states
"The formulations incorporate a sulphur/phosphorus additive system making these products especially well suited for multiple gear drives or where severe shock or overloads are encountered." - it also states it is contains anti-oxidation additives and that it is "non-corrosive to steel, copper, brass, bronze and other common bearing materials"

I definitely feel better getting a proper industrial oil rather than navigating all those details myself and hoping i made the right choice. I think this stuff is even cheaper than what i'd end up getting at the box stores/amazon, and 4L is more palatable than a 19L pail!

 

[chip4charlie]

Lee Valley is selling three (Goldenrods?)oil cans for $49.50: https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/sho...maintenance/69581-classic-oilers?item=25K7015

 

[Tom Kitta]

I use most of the oil from Princess Auto and their cheap oilers in addition to old stuff from auctions. The oilers survived 100s of pumps, maybe 1000s so they seem fine.

The only oil I wish PA had is very light grade, like ISO 18 and way oil.

 

[GlenG]

I've been running around in circles on this and I want to put it to bed so I can get to using my new lathe! I bought a CX706 from Busy Bee and the manual states to use a 20W machine oil for everything except the gearbox, and Mobilgear 627 in the gearboxes (apparently this is now called Mobilgear 600XP 100). Weird that they don't sell the oils considering how much of it they would probably sell.

So from everything I've learned about oils what I understand is that I shouldn't use motor oils in the gearbox, even if they're non-detergent... i've also learned that way oil is designed to be a bit sticky so that it doesn't drip off the surfaces it's supposed to be on. I also learned that 20W is equal to SAE20 or ISO68, and the Mobilgear is SAE30/ISO100, in terms of viscosities. McMaster Carr only has 6-packs of the jugs of equivalent/ideal products. I've read from some people that Anti-Wear Hydraulic Oil (like this one) should be good in the gearbox, but I also don't want to void my warranty. I certainly prefer to get a product at a retail outlet if I can, so that I have a reliable way to get more when I need it. I checked the Precision Matthews (same machine) manual and it lists 75W-80 as a gearbox oil, and the Weiss manual (also same machine) lists Mobil DTE Heavy Medium (an ISO 68 hydraulic oil) for the gearboxes.

In case you can't tell I'm brand new to all of this stuff, so any insight would be appreciated!

I found this seller on ebay when I was searching for small lots of ISO100 for my CX706 Haven’t tried them but they seem very expensive.

Synthetic Heavy Duty Gear Oil ISO 100, Better-to Shell Omala 100, Mobilgear 627 | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Synthetic Heavy Duty Gear Oil ISO 100, Better-to Shell Omala 100, Mobilgear 627 at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.ca

 

[Tom Kitta]

I found this seller on ebay when I was searching for small lots of ISO100 for my CX706 Haven’t tried them but they seem very expensive.

Synthetic Heavy Duty Gear Oil ISO 100, Better-to Shell Omala 100, Mobilgear 627 | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Synthetic Heavy Duty Gear Oil ISO 100, Better-to Shell Omala 100, Mobilgear 627 at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.ca

But you can get ISO 100 gear oil for next to nothing at both Canadian tire and Princess auto. Even synthetic one. This is like the most common gear oil there is. Lots of brands available. Both regular and synthetic.
The oil type my truck uses in the pumpkin & I bet a lot of other trucks as well.

Heck how much do you need I just give it to you. You can also see this on auctions as well. Lots.

You can just get oil equivalents table so you know which oil is which and how to substitute. Older equipment uses strange oils measured in strange units, so find equivalent and go with it.

Or just find out what oil is used for general lathe work, say headstock uses ISO 32 oil for speeds up to around 2000 rpm, my small lathe goes up to 3000 rpm so ISO 18. Gearbox generally uses heavier oil, at least ISO 68, can use iso 100 or iso 150.

 

[Mcgyver]

Afaik what synthetics primarily do for you is last longer at high heat. While they certainly won't hurt for our use, there is no point in paying a premium either as they hold no advantage in a machine tool

 

[Tom Kitta]

Afaik what synthetics primarily do for you is last longer at high heat. While they certainly won't hurt for our use, there is no point in paying a premium either as they hold no advantage in a machine tool

Some additives / synthetic make oil flow easier at low temps. So for these in unheated garages in the middle of winter using synthetic oil or at least one with additives may make work a bit easier.
I am unsure as to oxidation resistance of synthetics.
The main reason for cars is heat resistance.

 

[Rauce]

That would be these folks?

Commercial Oil - Lubricants and Rustproofing Supplier

We manufacture and distribute a wide variety of lubricants and oil based products for industrial, automotive, metal working, and specialty applications. Products include antifreeze glycol, mineral spirits, wax oil, power steering fluid, methyl-hydrate, windshield washer fluid.

www.commercialoil.ca

I squirrelled away a note of another company in Hamilton that was recommended:

Home Page - Crescent Oil

crescentoil.ca

No personal experience with either place.

Craig

For what it’s worth I have bought from crescent before and they were great. I needed non-detergent oil for the gearbox in my old lathe and they had it in 1 quart bottles pretty cheap.

 

[Tom Kitta]

For what it’s worth I have bought from crescent before and they were great. I needed non-detergent oil for the gearbox in my old lathe and they had it in 1 quart bottles pretty cheap.

You can also get non detergent oil at Canadian Tire for old cars. Most machine oils (AFAIK) are non detergant oils, so you can get very wide band of ISO grades at PA.

Detergant oils are needed in machine tool if it has oil filter. Most lathes do not - or it is rare to have them in hobby machines.