Can this sort of vice be used for milling?

[DPittman]

Ok I see the type of vise you have. The “universal vise” works for very light stuff on the mill. I would not consider that a proper milling vise. I have the exact same one. It is used 99% of the time on the Tool & Cutter Grinder or the Surface Grinder when I need compound angles. Grinding forces are a fraction of milling forces and this style of vise is perfectly suited for that.

Here is what I was thinking of: https://vevor.ca/products/4-non-swi...MIjteK_PWf6gIVhRx9Ch385gHdEAYYASABEgJCpvD_BwE (not affiliated). Or as @PeterT posted above.

Yes, it is a bit of a gamble unless you spend $$$s on a Kurt, Glacern, GS, KAR, any of the European brand ones, etc. The difference in performance is an order of magnitude better, however. Parts stay put. You can take them out for inspection/fit, put them back in and you will be right back in the same spot.

Here is a little one from PA. 3.25” jaw width. 2.5” opening. 1.625” bed night. Comes with swivel base.
View attachment 9770

Just checked, they don’t seem to list it any more...

Oh its good to know that my vise is not considered a proper milling vise...it came with the machine and I thought it would be great because it swivels and angles.
Do you have personal experience with that particular brand you linked? A 4" vise like that doesn't seem as expensive as I thought it would be. I really doubt I can spring for one of the top name brand vises.

 

[PeterT]

That link is a really nice riser block mod. I'm not really familiar with this class of mills but isn't that a 'fixed column' style as opposed to 'slide up & down the pole' style? I can see where a spacer could be swapped in & utilize the existing lugs, but could this be done on a pole slider?

 

[kevin.decelles]

@DPittman - check out the files in that 6x26 URL we shared, there is info on a riser block.

 

[Tom Kitta]

Just don't go too crazy with the riser block - the bigger it is the less rigid it makes your machine. For reasonable sized ones it should not matter to a hobbyist (i.e. you are not running it so it feels its about to blow up).

 

[DPittman]

@DPittman - check out the files in that 6x26 URL we shared, there is info on a riser block.

I'll do that thanks. What size of vise do you recommend for my machine 4 or 5 inch?

 

[RobinHood]

Oh its good to know that my vise is not considered a proper milling vise...it came with the machine and I thought it would be great because it swivels and angles.

Don, just to be clear, I am not knocking your choice of vise. It may well suit your needs fine (other than the height issue). If you are careful, use light cuts with sharp tools in say aluminum, plastic, and the occasional mild steel, you will probably be fine.

The reason I called it an “non-milling vise” is mainly because the way it is constructed. Each axis of freedom is prevented from rotating by two relatively small bolts each. Because of all the axis, the part sits high off the mill table, reducing rigidity. Surface finish can suffer. Cutter life will suffer were the vise itself to even move a tiny bit (rotate in an axis). The cutter could grab and snap off.

Yes, clamping to the table is a PITA, but as far as rigidity is concerned, nothing can beat it.

No I do not have personal experience with the Vevor branded vise.

 

[Tom O]

You can always use some1/4 or 1/2 high speed cutters for lifting it off the table.

 

[DPittman]

Don, just to be clear, I am not knocking your choice of vise. It may well suit your needs fine (other than the height issue). If you are careful, use light cuts with sharp tools in say aluminum, plastic, and the occasional mild steel, you will probably be fine.

The reason I called it an “non-milling vise” is mainly because the way it is constructed. Each axis of freedom is prevented from rotating by two relatively small bolts each. Because of all the axis, the part sits high off the mill table, reducing rigidity. Surface finish can suffer. Cutter life will suffer were the vise itself to even move a tiny bit (rotate in an axis). The cutter could grab and snap off.

Yes, clamping to the table is a PITA, but as far as rigidity is concerned, nothing can beat it.

No I do not have personal experience with the Vevor branded vise.

I appreciate the advice. That Groz vice is knocking $600 I believe on Amazon so I made an assumption that it would have been pretty good for my little machine, but I guess the features reduce rigidity.
I'm still trying to understand milling vice choices and think I should purchase a 4-5" vise that with accuracy and rigidity to at least match my machine.

I understand that a swivel base can sacrifice rigidity but with most I see you can use it without the swivel base if need be...why not choose a vice with that option? Some of the non swivel base vises I see are a little more money than a swivel base vise that looks comparable. What am I missing?

Any brief comments on the diffences of the three vises pictured below would be appreciated.

 

[Tom Kitta]

I honestly don't know who uses swivel feature - anyone? It no only makes it less rigid, it also kills some Z. There does not seem to be any benefit at all to having one - unless you do some " rough angles". On a shaper there is benefit of making say roughly 30 degree knurling.

Swivel usually should not come as standard as 90%+ of people don't use it. On Chinese stuff its an "extra" value - I think they may as well spent that extra $10 on making the vise a bit better.

Not all Chinese is bad - some can be good - but you better know what you are getting and price point is high. Groz should be in $200 price range, not $600. Groz is premium Indian manufacturer === standard Chinese. Regular India === 1980s mainland China. Premium China >> premium India. More or less that is true for 99% of tools I know of. You want to see some bad quality - buy cheap India

All 3 vises are similar cheap Chinese stuff you get for roughly 200. All of them will perform roughly the same - i.e. not so good.

One non 100% foolproof hint :


see that per arrow is pointing at - now compare to yours. This is a Polish vise.

At 600 price level get a Kurt or Polish above etc. You could get 6" newest Kurt for something like 700 few months ago.

Trust me, the 200 crowd is great for a drill press but only marginally better then drill press vice in most cases.

 

[DPittman]

I just found the vise thread on this forum so no need to repeat that valuable advice found there. Thanks
https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/milling-vise-recommendation.1339/

 

[PeterT]

I honestly don't know who uses swivel feature - anyone?

I don't myself for the reasons you mentioned. Maximizing head space has always been the bigger issue & constraint in my case. The swivel vise I had when I started out machining had other issues so the baby went out with the bath water. But like most things, depends on the type of work one does. I see folks who do a lot of mitering type jobs like welded assemblies where they want to get an angle quickly and +/- a some degrees or thous is not an issue. But sooner or later the same jobs require compound angles so you either spring for a double swivel vise or hold a vise within a vise. Depends on how often, how much time you have, how much moola....

Most mill vises will lend themselves to attaching to the mill table at an angle anyways. The casting lugs wont line up to the T-slots of course but you can usually find a way to clamp along the base casting lip with the usual hold-downs - arguably with more secure force. Some vises are ground on the sides with a recessed longitudinal slot like the one picture. This facilitates using the same hold-down fixture intersecting wherever the T-slot happens to coincide.

The trick in precision work is how to set the vise at the target angle reliably. You will most likely be tramming a DTI across some known precision reference like an angle block, protractor device or jig plate with dowel posts. I've had to do this a few times & its a bit fiddly. On Bridgeport style machines, the whole head can be swiveled so it traverses across the table at an angle & the vise stays put at conventional 90-deg position. I have yet to do this & compare the mill graduations to reality. The scale is much larger due to the size of the column so gives more resolution, but lets face it, they are just markings.

 

[PeterT]

I've always wondered if this kind of vise might be additionally useful because you can position it conventionally like picture, or I believe rotate 90-deg laying on its side. For example if it was a 4" wide jaw you could grip that that entire length of stock sticking up mode. As opposed to say a 1.5" jaw depth vise or reduced some more with a parallel in the jaws.

One thing I've noticed is not all of these flat side vises have jaws that end inside the edge like this pic. It could be the ground sides are more about setup like you see on grinding vises.

 

[Johnwa]

My vise has a swivel base. I think I used it once and then immediately regretted it when I had to set it square. I’ve thought about removing it but haven’t got around to it. I habe a ZAY 7025 mill that is smaller than the 7045 (large bench top) mill. Even with the swivel base I’ve never had a z axis limitation.

 

[YYCHM]

This is the vise @Dabbler lent me to try. Thanks John!



It's a 5" and weights 60# with the swivel base which I removed. Setup to drill with a 5" long 1/2" drill bit (the longest I have), I could mount something 5-1/2" high under the bit. My quill travel is 5". So I guess that's about the right size vise for me. I'll have to indicate it square to the table which is a little annoying but at 40# I can't see being motivated to remove it much unless absolutely necessary.

Sure looks like over kill to me What do you guys think?

Craig

AND...… I just realized I'll need a larger set of parallels to use this!!!!

 

[DPittman]

This is the vise @Dabbler lent me to try. Thanks John!

View attachment 9790

It's a 5" and weights 60# with the swivel base which I removed. Setup to drill with a 5" long 1/2" drill bit (the longest I have), I could mount something 5-1/2" high under the bit. My quill travel is 5". So I guess that's about the right size vise for me. I'll have to indicate it square to the table which is a little annoying but at 40# I can't see being motivated to remove it much unless absolutely necessary.

Sure looks like over kill to me What do you guys think?

Craig

Doesn't look nearly as overkill as I would have imagined. I ended up ordering a 4" for mine. I bet you will like that vise as long as you are not taking in on and off all the time.

 

[kevin.decelles]

Don, I have the 4” shars vise on my 6x26. I think 5” would have been pushing it




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[YYCHM]

Don, I have the 4” shars vise on my 6x26. I think 5” would have been pushing it
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Is that the table size Kevin? Mine's 8X29. Is that vise John lent me too big?

 

[DPittman]

Don, I have the 4” shars vise on my 6x26. I think 5” would have been pushing it




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Ya I went and read your comments on another post....and yup I am going to own a kurt too someday...just not this year either.

 

[kevin.decelles]

Is that the table size Kevin? Mine's 8X29. Is that vise John lent me too big?

Size is a matter of preference . I know many members who found the space between the jaws insufficient on a 4” and even on a 6” . I haven’t had that issue but can understand the problem

Weight, and stick-out on the Y axis are other issues with vices too big. Balancing 60 lbs can be interesting .

I’ve never had a 5”, it may be the sweet spot





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[PeterT]

That's more headroom than I imagined on that mill. A good thing!
Just curious - roughly what is this thickness dimension? (mill table top to vise base)