Cambridge - machinist newb

[ThirtyOneDriver]

I'm following - what you're describing @Brent H is where my head was at when I took those parts out of the box the first time.

@Susquatch - I should have a "butt pincher" but we have a saying in this shop... once something hits the floor or goes behind something it's "gone forever" (realistically, that means at some point I'm going to lay on the floor to recover it, but it might not be right away)

Thanks for the reminder @Six O Two, sometimes you have what you have... speaking of which... ...

I think I need to make that adapter bar/rod/piece of hardware so that I can put the BXA QCTP on the tool slide for a couple of hours... I have something that I need ready for Thursday morning (start of day) that I don't think I have any tools (except the cheap boring bars(?)) here capable of doing it. I have 4 automotive hub adapters that fit a set of rims but don't fit the hubs on the vehicle those rims are for (hub bore needs enlarged) - they're aluminum and 1.5" thick (~2 1/2" center bore, 6 or 7" outer diameter) - I may be able to get away w/ one of the lathe cutting tools I have; the first attempt I only had the cheap 3/8" ones and there wasn't enough clearance... also, I may not need to go that deep to relieve(?) them for the lip of the hub.

I think I have all of the tooling necessary to make (adapter render)


After the hub adapters, I'll get back to setting up the mill (and doing the lathe project, etc.) I have made a couple of parts here and there, mainly bushing type stuff, on the lathe, but I do need a good starter project or two.

Also, essential tools - I think I need a boring head in the future (maybe the lathe and the boring bar will work for the basic ideas) - a main component that I would like to stop paying someone else to make is a threaded bung that we use in the jack-bolt system of the racecar (basically levelling feet for the suspension - I'd like to use the same size for the levelling feet for my lathe and milling machine stands because it's easy for me to get the bolt side of it) - they're 1 1/8" NFT (already have the tap).

Thanks for the support - I'll check the thread later - there's some snow that needs moved so the propane guy can relocate the shop's propane tanks... hopefully I can get the shop warmed up a little in the near future.

 

[SomeGuy]

Ive always considered either making or finding such a list for both the mill and for the lathe. You are correct, the list you referred to is just what I want close at hand and convenient. Not necessarily what I consider essential - although if it's on that list it is essential. But there are lots of other things that I consider essential that are not on that list.

I've always thought "essential" depends on exactly what you're trying to do...there's no generic list. I mean you could say a dial indicator and a caliper...but even then, if you're planning on turning artsy stuff by eye for example, there's no need for any precision measuring instruments anyway.

The other way is listing what is common to have, though that list tends to get out of hand and makes people think that they can't do any machining until they have all those tools.

 

[Susquatch]

I've always thought "essential" depends on exactly what you're trying to do...there's no generic list. I mean you could say a dial indicator and a caliper...but even then, if you're planning on turning artsy stuff by eye for example, there's no need for any precision measuring instruments anyway.

The other way is listing what is common to have, though that list tends to get out of hand and makes people think that they can't do any machining until they have all those tools.

You are prolly right on both counts.

Maybe essential isn't the right word.

I dunno, I guess I'm just interested in what tools other users find useful and why. Nobody knows what they don't know and nobody knows what tools exist that they have never heard of.

I regularly run across all kinds of very useful things I have never heard of, take one look at it, ask a few questions and then say "crap! I just wasted 6 days trying to xxxxxx when for 5 bucks or 5 minutes work I could have xxxxxx....

A few recent examples include:

Sensitive micro drill chuck
NOGA Indicator Holder
Morse Taper Wedge
Lathe File

That's just a short list of things I discovered just recently. There are many others. Just imagine how many drill bits I broke or needed to extract before somebody here mentioned a sensitive drill chuck..... It cost me $65 but it was worth every penny, and to me, for my usage, I wish I had one 10 years ago!

The things I listed above are all pretty basic and using my own definition and my own usage, I'd call them essential. But I didn't even know they existed.

I'm sure there are many other things I've never heard of before but wish someone would tell me about them.

Hence my comment.

 

[ThirtyOneDriver]

I love the conversations being had - I'm absorbing as much as I can and every post is teaching/inspiring me.

I get to make my adapter a second time - I made a critical error.

The finish isn't the greatest, actually, I'd consider it pretty horrible, but I'm using the tools I have. When I looked up the RPM through an app (instead of going in the house and grabbing the bible) it suggested somewhere around 3000... the CX 709 can go to 1650... I have the CX 709"x" w/ the faulty/undersized motor... I can only turn 850... w/ the cheap BB 3/8" tooling...

I stopped to check the fitment when I was getting ready to turn down the other end and cut (w/ a die... threading using the machine is beyond my skill level right now) the 5/8" UNF threads when something didn't work quite right. I don't remember how/where I got the M10x1.5 number from; IIRC a 3/8"-16 nut didn't thread on so I assumed the chinese/taiwan made machine was likely metric - I should have invested more time into confirming. Oh well, I get more practice.

 

[PeterT]

The finish isn't the greatest, actually, I'd consider it pretty horrible, but I'm using the tools I have.

Maybe. I do experiment with different inserts, but tend to keep the same ones in my holders so that's a relative constant. But I can sure tell the difference between some crap grade mystery metal & other alloys. 12L14 is very nice to turn if you haven't tried. Doesn't lend itself to welding because of tiny lead% but its very nice for many general applications, especially threading. I'm getting the hang of stainless after figuring out the scrap bin alloys were more challenging. (tough stuff & work hardening issues). But a few sticks of 303 improved my attitude & I wondered what all the fuss was about. Even made my little valves from it. I'm trying to consciously try different alloys now, like I've not turned 4140 type much. Another I stumbled on is 1144SP (stressproof). Nice to turn & finish & very little distortion. For some reason 1018 seems to be the variable. I bought some new locally & it just turns like sh*t. Bought the same alloy as part of USA order & its just plain different (better), I can't explain.

 

[Susquatch]

The finish isn't the greatest, actually, I'd consider it pretty horrible

If the finish is important to you, try a round BIT, or HSS, or a HSS shear tool. But I doubt it really matters for your application.

Call me an idiot if you want, but I'm not really clear on what that thing is that you are trying to make or how it works. I might be able to help more if I did. And what is the OD?

threading using the machine is beyond my skill level right now

Ya, wise decision. I'd learn basic turning first too.

And if it makes you feel any better, I used to look for opportunities to thread on the lathe. Anymore now, the first thing I do is check to see if the target thread pitch is supported by the change gear I have installed. If it isn't, and the application doesn't require a perfect thread, then I often set up to thread with a die or a tap instead. Basically, I don't like changing gears because I don't have a lot of room over on the left side of my lathe. It's a tight fit to begin with, but I also keep my steel and aluminium swarf barrels there. Stainless, Brass, and Copper swarf are put in small trash baskets located elsewhere.

@PeterT - those are some pretty nifty looking valves! Great work!

 

[ShawnR]

Ya, wise decision. I'd learn basic turning first too.

And if it makes you feel any better, I used to look for opportunities to thread on the lathe. Anymore now, the first thing I do is check to see if the target thread pitch is supported by the change gear I have installed. If it isn't, and the application doesn't require a perfect thread, then I often set up to thread with a die or a tap instead. Basically, I don't like changing gears because I don't have a lot of room over on the left side of my lathe.

I agree with @Susquatch , both on learning basic turning first and gear changes. On my old lathe, Craftex B2227,every carriage feed was a change of gears, usually at least 2. I always avoided it, hence never learned to cut threads. The gear changes also took minimum 4 tools! I finally decided to commit to it. I combined 3 tools together and put a thumbscrew on the panel door (yes, even opening the door needed a tool) I kept the tool in the compartment. I then just started changing gears more and cursing less. Eventually, it got much easier. The next good decision I made was to buy a threading tool. Insert type. Sure beats the heck out of squinting at a threading guide to see if the ground angle is correct (but you lose the excuse of blaming the tool for a poor thread...

I have never mastered a great finish but they are improving. I do have one piece of material in the shop that looks beautiful almost always (so I never use it cause I am saving it for.......?? ) Most of my stock is cold rolled so when the members here use metal designations, mine is rusty x10 .

I will be a hundred and still feel like I am the new guy. Enjoy the learning curve. It can be more rewarding than the finished project.

My 2 cents.
Cheers.

 

[Susquatch]

The next good decision I made was to buy a threading tool. Insert type.

I did buy a few carbide insert tools but never learned to like them. A few years ago I ran across this kit.

Kit #18 1/2 inch Threader NV

www.arwarnerco.com

I never looked back. This tool cuts the best threads I know how to make. It uses hss inserts instead of carbide. So you can cut slower and still get a fantastic finish.

I also have one of these from Mesa tool. It is almost as good as the Warner but uses carbide inserts. I use it for most of the threading I do and I save the Warner for those times when I need the best thread I can make.

1/2" Thread & Grooving Tool ID/OD | mesatool

1/2"″ Thread & Groove ToolThread ID/OD forwards, backwards, upside down.Cutting edge of insert is on centerline!Actual size: ..498 dia X 4.5″ long, flats on 4 sides.Min bore is .650.Heat treated tool steel with black oxide coating.Threading inserts are .093 wide, good for 11 TPI & up.Comes with...

www.mesatool.com

 

[ShawnR]

Lots out there. This is the one I got here

As I said, it is good, but it is large. Sometimes that makes it a bit of a hindrance. I like the ones @Susquatch got. They look good.

 

[ThirtyOneDriver]

Post 45, 58 and 70 on this thread have pictures/information on what I'm making @Susquatch - I don't know what to call it - an adapter pin perhaps?

The OEM Tool Post (TP) has that smaller bolt(ish) type thing that the TP is held down by (along w/ the handle) - I know that just throwing the BXA QCTP on the Tool Slide that I did so many measurements for isn't ideal - the slide top is too close to the lathe center - but I don't have a way to mount the boring bars that I have w/o mounting the BXA QCTP. The adapter pin will thread onto the OEM pin and fit the bore of the BXA QCTP and be long enough that I can use the handle included w/ the BXA QCTP to anchor it.

I'm very limited on materials for lathe work right now... my shop is more of a welding shop than a machining shop so the materials I have laying around are cold-rolled (less scale) 1018 and I'm using 7/8" round stock.

I think I left enough of an end on the adapter I was making that I could cut the end with the inner thread off and re-drill and tap that end to fit - other than turning down the outer dia (5/8"), the only thing after that I would need to do is cut the 5/8" NFT threads w/ the die.

The speed that the power feed is going seems too aggressive as well. Again, for what I'm making (and I'm hoping it's temporary) it doesn't matter.

When I have the adapter finished and the QCTP on, I'll be able to use the boring bars that I for the hub job - it wasn't something I expected to do right now, but this is how the stars are lining up. The boring bar cutting edge won't be in line w/ the lathe center... unless perhaps I flip it over and on the far side as the work travels up?? ??... but sometimes you gotta get'r'dun. I may also be able to use a RH tool... I think I mixed myself up and the reason it hadn't worked earlier for me was (different job) the radius was too tight so the work was hitting the bottom of the tool (under the cutter).

Can't tell you guys enough how much I appreciate you following me along and sharing experiences/solutions/ideas.

 

[ThirtyOneDriver]

@PeterT beautiful valves - what are they for? What's the diameter of the head?

 

[Susquatch]

Post 45, 58 and 70 on this thread have pictures/information on what I'm making @Susquatch - I don't know what to call it - an adapter pin perhaps?

OK, somehow or another I stopped following the details of the thread when you started adapting the BXA to the AXA base. It wasn't something I thought I could help with nor learn from.

Silly question - Most of those through Bolts just screw into the t-base. Why don't you just remove the small one and replace it with the big one instead of screwing them together? You could do this several ways:

One would be to bore out and tap your existing base to fit the bigger shaft. But that is a one way trip.

I'd much sooner see you either make a new big shaft like you have but as a one shot replacement with a small male thread on one end and the bigger male thread on the other.

That or cut down the new base to fit your old T-slot. This would be my preferred approach.

The speed that the power feed is going seems too aggressive as well. Again, for what I'm making (and I'm hoping it's temporary) it doesn't matter.

That's a bit hard to believe. I'm guessing you have not figured out how to use the chart and the levers that came with your lathe. I've yet to see a lathe that would not feed slower than a snails grandmother...

When I have the adapter finished and the QCTP on, I'll be able to use the boring bars that I for the hub job -

OK, this is where I differ greatly. Put those boring bars of yours away until you get a mill and a boring head and go get yourself a nice proper lathe boring bar sized for the job. Unlike mill boring bars, lathe bars are specified for the size of hole you are boring and have rakes for that size that will not rub in the hole. You will never regret it. 99% of lathe boring bars allow you to choke up on the length for stiffness too and the flat is designed to index correctly in a regular lathe tool holder. Although I've never done it, I'd bet that the indexing flat on a milling bar is not properly located for use in a lathe.

 

[Susquatch]

When I have the adapter finished and the QCTP on, I'll be able to use the boring bars that I for the hub job

I was correct. I I went out to my shop just now and I looked more closely at the two kinds of boring bars. The indexing flats on the boring bars that are used with a boring head on a mill ARE NOT indexed properly for use in a lathe tool holder. It might be possible to use them in a round clamp, but that seems totally backward to me.

Take a run out your nearest tooling shop and get one of these the right size for the job you need to do and for the holders you have. Make sure to get one with an indexing flat.

Here is very inexpensive set that will get to your place by Friday if you do it now. They will work just fine with your existing AXA tool post and will work with your BXA when you finish that too.

Amazon.ca

 

[ThirtyOneDriver]

Yeah... I haven't figured out the chart and levers yet. https://manualzz.com/doc/53356446/craftex-cx-series-cx709-13in.-x-24in.-metal-lathe-owner-m...

I'll keep plugging away and see what I can do w/ the advice, etc. I'll look to see if there's a simpler solution "for now" so that I can get this task done and then concentrate on setting up the mill to create a new tool slide/machine down the one I have a 1/4". I'm trying to avoid going down one way streets for right now.

 

[Susquatch]

I'll look to see if there's a simpler solution "for now" so that I can get this task done

You can prolly turn that base down on your lathe just as easily as milling it...... Just chuck it in the four jaw with a backing system of some kind so it sits proud of the jaws and then turn it to the desired thickness to fit your T-slot. That would not be a one-way street.

 

[ThirtyOneDriver]

I got the hub adapter/spacer issue resolved and can go back to properly setting up the tool post for the lathe.

Therefore, back to tramming the head of the mill, etc.

 

[ThirtyOneDriver]

The deck of the tool slide is too high - are you thinking that I could cut down the base of the BXA post?

I think @PeterT summed up what I'm thinking that I need to do the best w/ this photo/edit.


I'm reluctant to cut the top off of the tool slide so am still contemplating making another to fit the parts of the BXA QCTP.

 

[Susquatch]

I am with you. Lopping off that compound is a one way trip I would not really want to take. Yes, I'd rather take a bit off the bottom of the tool post and those holders that need it to buy the room you need to be able to center your tools.

Similarly, even though it would require removing the compound to do it, I'd be making a new through bolt rather than making an adapter bolt.

The bottom line is that you are relatively young. In time you may want to buy a bigger lathe. I'd want to keep everything original to maximize resale. But that is a flaw in my character. Peter's solution is a better one if you don't care about resale.

Of course, you could always take off half and maybe both posts would work. Who the heck would ever know or care if it still looked and worked like factory?

 

[Susquatch]

I know where there is a shop a few hours West down the 401 where you could do whatever you want to do and the owner will even let you use his machines while he watches and yaks yours ears off.

 

[Tom Kitta]

The deck of the tool slide is too high - are you thinking that I could cut down the base of the BXA post?

I think @PeterT summed up what I'm thinking that I need to do the best w/ this photo/edit.
View attachment 20056

I'm reluctant to cut the top off of the tool slide so am still contemplating making another to fit the parts of the BXA QCTP.

I had same thing on two lathes. No issues, just turned a new bolt to fit the QCTP. One of them was BXA. No issues at all.

If deck is too high as in your example for unknown reason just cut it down. I would be only reluctant to do so if there was not enough meat over there. Otherwise, what is the problem? Its not going to affect negatively your machine at all.