Brazing Cast Iron

[van123d]

So I have been working on my 10ee the last several months doing the usual repair as needed and clean and paint. I am at the point now where the mechanical parts are pretty well all back together and am starting to shift my focus to the covers/door that up to now have been untouched.

I knew that the upper and lower belt covers each had a small crack that I was planning to leave initially and repair if I saw it getting worse. Well I removed all of the chrome from the upper belt cover and discovered that what I thought was a small crack is actually very significant. The cover is almost split into three parts with only a small section holding things together.

It has now shifted from a future problem if needed to a current problem that needs to be resolved.

My concern is I have very little brazing experience, none on cast iron, and it was years ago. Both pieces are very large but thin which makes me think there is a high chance of cracking from the heat stress. On top of that these parts are hard to replace and very expensive when they do come up so I am hesitant to just give it a shot myself.

Does anyone know of someone, preferably Southern Ontario, who is experienced in this type of repair that they could recommend?


Crack highlighted.

 

[Jayham]

I would recommend drilling a small hole at the top of the housing to stop the crack from spreading any further. That crack does look far from breaking the whole thing in half.

 

[justin1]

Is it a Load bearing part or just a cover?

If it's just a cover you could just silver solder the crack. You can do it with right flux and hand torch. Has lowest risk to make it any worse.

If it's load bearing then I would recommend Tig welding with silicone bronze.

I would talk to few welding shops or even tractor repair shops that work on older tractors as they would come across lots of broken cast.

Most shops should tell you if there comfortable with working on cast iron. some shops will turn you away as cast iron can be more of headache then it's worth specially for small stuff.

 

[Arbutus]

Second thing to do is anneal the whole piece. about 1500 deg for a half hour - that will remove any residual internal stresses and reduce the possibility of the cracks progressing. Then braze it.

 

[Mcgyver]

100% agree with Jayham. There is a group in St Catherine's that just does cast iron repairs. I've had them braze stuff (despite having a fabrication business, our guys would rarely touch CI so wouldn't be steeped in experience and the job was mission critical) which they say is preferred (vs welding). They also do a metal stitching process that is great for parts that are not highly stressed which that would be, its cheaper but there's the aesthetics issue, and that's a very visible part on very attractive lathe.

Be sitting down thou, their hourly rate is astounding, like close to 300 irrc. Its a big part and success depend on a proper even pre heat and a gentle slow cool at leasst with blankets if not in an oven (big part, thin sections = trouble). Most home shops aren't going to have the space or equipment for that.

imo likely the best thing given the extent of the cracking is to buy another and make a run into the US for it. There's a huge base of 10ee fans there and some are always getting scrapped and parted out. I think it would the cheapest route, even if you have to pay for a large crate to be shipped. Spend some time on the 10ee forum at Practical machinist and you'll probably get some leads. Edit, you say thet are expensive, maybe they are, i've not looked for those particular ones but they used prices for other 10ee parts always seemed reasonable.

Pretty sure it was these guys. https://www.duny.ca/herculock/

 

[trlvn]

I think I've posted this before but cast iron repairs, even in the hands of a highly skilled and experienced guy, can go very wrong:

Craig

 

[DPittman]

Brazing would be what I would do, first heat the entire part and then let cool slowly afterwards. However it doesn't look like the crack is compromising any structural integrity???? So if that is the case I'd use JB weld it will sand down and paint over and you'll never know it was cracked.

 

[van123d]

This is not a structural part, just cosmetic.

@trlvn I saw that video when you posted it a while back. It is partly what has contributed to my reluctance to attempt this.

I think it is worth having the repair attempted vs buying replacements. Just the upper belt cover sold on ebay a couple of weeks ago for $650USD plus shipping. To replace both covers I would be out a couple thousand and these are commonly cracked. Good chance any replacement will also need to be repaired.

The lower belt cover is not compromising the structure at all. Just a small crack on the edge. The upper cover is definitely structurally compromised. The center section is close to separating and the entire thing is ready to split down the middle. Luckily from an aesthetics perspective 90% of the crack is covered by chrome pieces that are spaced off the surface so much of the repair would not be visible.

Random internet image that shows the chrome pieces on which would hide most of the repair.




I will contact that duny company. That looks to be exactly what I am looking for. Someone who specializes in this. I will see what they recommend and hopefully get an estimate from them to do the repair.

 

[wmetfab]

Van,
Dont panic, you can do this, no problem.
Its been a long time, but here is the general process:

There are special arc welding rods u can get for cast iron repairs. Use the tiny ones, 1/16 or 3/32.
Shown is a picture of what I have but there are others, Arctec alloys is another good one but there are more.
With the right heat these rods weld like butter

Grit blast the whole thing to start, remove all oil and grease
Drill a small hole at the lead end of the crack as Jayhan says.
Carefully V grove the cracks with a small grinding wheel and a die grinder.

Pre heat the the entire casting and keep it warm during the entire process. It dosent have to be red hot, like 350 450 deg. Is fine. Send the wife out, put it in the oven. Use a large tray or pan or make one with plywood and bury the entire part in floor dry or kityy litter. Expose the area u working on. Clean the dust away with a small brush that wont melt if u have to

I would probably start with the small web sections at the distal end and work towoards the center.
Weld small beads at a time like 5/8 or 3/4" and peen them immidiately after welding with a very small ball peen hammer. If u have to keep the part warm, use a tiger torch once in a while or put it back in the oven

As you get to the longer cracks, jump around here and there. Clean the ends of the welds in the groove with a wire brush and die or pencil grinder

Use several rods at a time, rotate them out. Do a couple welds, remove the rod, let it cool, insert another, if they get too hot the flux falls off.

When its done, leave it in the kitty litter till completely cools on its own

Have cold beverages handy. Put on some nice music. Relax. Be super patient. It will take you all day.
Dont worry...U can do this, no problem!

 

[wmetfab]

I think I've posted this before but cast iron repairs, even in the hands of a highly skilled and experienced guy, can go very wrong:

Craig

I love this guy, I watch his videos all the time. He is absolutely a first rate craftsman machinist welder

 

[Bandit]

That is a bit of complex series of cracks. In general, you may not want to skip around welding/brazing in different places, as I was told,"start at the uncracked end of the crack, let the free ends wave around. If you try to restrain them, there will be more cracking and bad words!" This from an old timer that I was "helping" weld up a nearly 6ft. pump case that had froze and cracked. The crack was about 3 ft. long in the outer bowl case. My job was to peen the weld after every 2 in. of welding. A very long 2 days of what seemed to be slow progress. He had made perhaps 1/2 depth groove on the crack, weld abit, I would peen for minute or so, he would say when, put his hand near to feel how hot. After a few welds, some peening, then a sit down, bs for a bit, temp. check, weld abit, peen, sit, and so on. The sitting breaks got longer as it went, waiting for cooling. At the near end of the second day, job was done.
Part of my job seemed to be asking lots of questions about why, and what I thought about the procedure. Part of it was the case was to big to heat for the equipment we had, there for weld it cool and keep it near cool, don't get in a hurry, short welds, peen, but not to much, as could case weld metal expansion and more cracking. Man the learning to be done!
Does this apply to how to do every cast iron welding/brazing job, no, but the learning part sure can.

 

[Tom Kitta]

Since this is cosmetic - not load bearing I would do the following:
1. stop the crack with a hole
2. either silver soldier it or braze it or weld it with high chromium electrode
3. clean all paint up, sand all welded spots flat, use a filler for any parts that have dents
4. Repaint

Definitely don't do long welding passes - small here and there as other suggested.

I did few cast iron repairs - if you count your time and actual retail value of electrodes etc. the costs are high. But re-casting some things would be rather complex in the west - I am sure in places like say Pakistan, you could just bring the part to local caster and he would re-cast it for you for less than the cost of all the welding materials.

 

[FatherWes]

The good news is that a replacement part can be bought. Not cheap, but at least it is available. And at $300+ per hour to repair, I suspect that US$650 plus shipping could end up being a good deal. If it were me, I’d double check on the availability of the replacement. If it is available, I’d try the repair myself. If I fail, I’m out the C$1000+/- and I’m back in business.
That, or I’d drill the ends of the crack(s), then put a strap or two across the crack on the inside if there’s clearance (drill and tap a small hole on each side of the crack and screw on a piece of flat bar) and then JB Weld it as @DPittman suggested.

One caveat. I would be surprised if the repair shop would guarantee the repair. If it cracks as they attempt the repair, you could still be looking at a bill for 2 or 10 or ? hours of shop time.

 

[robert million]

cast iron stitching

 

[Tom Kitta]

cast iron stitching

Yes, I even have a kit of that - never used it - but have it just in case.

 

[MooseMeat]

Look into Tig brazing with silicon bronze, and even aluminum bronze. I have used it a bit but I'm not a welder by any means, "I'm a grinder baby, not a welder." It's great stuff to work with, and when you Tig it it's very clean, cast iron I do believe is one of "sb's/ab's" good tricks..

cheers MM.

the go to guy

OH and BTW,
things like this gives us reason for a new tool, look at Everlast Welders.

 

[Susquatch]

Being a horrible welder, my approach to repairing a cast iron crack is either a new casting, or drill to stop the crack and then epoxy. On two occasions, I also drilled and added a brace which was both epoxied and bolted on. I prefer the new casting unless its only cosmetic damage. Ugly guys like me are not big on beautiful things unless they are female.

 

[MooseMeat]

Being a horrible welder, my approach to repairing a cast iron crack is either a new casting, or drill to stop the crack and then epoxy. On two occasions, I also drilled and added a brace which was both epoxied and bolted on. I prefer the new casting unless its only cosmetic damage. Ugly guys like me are not big on beautiful things unless they are female.

Try tig welding, you won't regret it, aluminium, well that's a different duck with a bigger learning curve, I wouldn't hesitate to tig braze that thing.

 

[MooseMeat]

So I have been working on my 10ee the last several months doing the usual repair as needed and clean and paint. I am at the point now where the mechanical parts are pretty well all back together and am starting to shift my focus to the covers/door that up to now have been untouched.

I knew that the upper and lower belt covers each had a small crack that I was planning to leave initially and repair if I saw it getting worse. Well I removed all of the chrome from the upper belt cover and discovered that what I thought was a small crack is actually very significant. The cover is almost split into three parts with only a small section holding things together.

It has now shifted from a future problem if needed to a current problem that needs to be resolved.

My concern is I have very little brazing experience, none on cast iron, and it was years ago. Both pieces are very large but thin which makes me think there is a high chance of cracking from the heat stress. On top of that these parts are hard to replace and very expensive when they do come up so I am hesitant to just give it a shot myself.

Does anyone know of someone, preferably Southern Ontario, who is experienced in this type of repair that they could recommend?

View attachment 45466
Crack highlighted.

View attachment 45467

I saw this the other day and started to drool, thought you'd like this pic if you haven't seen it already. If I was close by I'd tig braze it for you just for the experience, (no guarantee comes with it though) there has to be someone you know with a tig?

So I have been working on my 10ee the last several months doing the usual repair as needed and clean and paint. I am at the point now where the mechanical parts are pretty well all back together and am starting to shift my focus to the covers/door that up to now have been untouched.

I knew that the upper and lower belt covers each had a small crack that I was planning to leave initially and repair if I saw it getting worse. Well I removed all of the chrome from the upper belt cover and discovered that what I thought was a small crack is actually very significant. The cover is almost split into three parts with only a small section holding things together.

It has now shifted from a future problem if needed to a current problem that needs to be resolved.

My concern is I have very little brazing experience, none on cast iron, and it was years ago. Both pieces are very large but thin which makes me think there is a high chance of cracking from the heat stress. On top of that these parts are hard to replace and very expensive when they do come up so I am hesitant to just give it a shot myself.

Does anyone know of someone, preferably Southern Ontario, who is experienced in this type of repair that they could recommend?

View attachment 45466
Crack highlighted.

View attachment 45467

 

[Darren]

Thats a pretty straightforward brazing repair. Any welding shop with a crusty 60 years old guy in the back should be able to easily handle it.

If you're willing to handle shipping expenses and shop labor, I'd do it if you can't find anyone local.