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Best gas for mig Welding sheet metal?

DavidR8

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That list @David_R8 is pretty good - I kind of balked at the first two things until I thought about it a little more.

(Layman explanation, there are numbers out there but I'm not going to look for them right now)
There's certain material transfer phases that MIG welding goes through - their changes happen at certain voltages (https://www.aedmotorsport.com/news/mig-welding-transfer-methods) - this could be very important to help someone... amperage/IPM can impact a bunch of things but is also impacted by the user's technique... so knowing the IPM would be a great way to understand what should be happening w/in a certain voltage range.

I'm sure the guys asking for help greatly assist those who are providing - at the school, we always compared number the first day - by the time test day (day 4) came around, we'd be welding like @dfloen - "it don't matter what it's set at, it's too far to reach, f' it" and as long as you were relatively close to the parameters technique would save you.

Ever see a welder perform a horizontal butt weld using 2 9" long 1/4" aluminum welding coupons w/ a machine capable of 87V fully maxed out on adjustments? (likely 32v, >800IPM) weld? It looks like God himself is shooting through the end of the nozzle and the whole 9" coupon is filled (including a 1/4" deep, 3/4" wide root through the far side) in one breath... about the same length of breath you would take before pulling the trigger while hunting. Instructors said he couldn't be done - we all passed our visual, bend tests, and chemical aided inspections. The numbers are great to make sure you're in the ballpark, once you know what you're doing they're just a guide/reference.
I totally agree that once you get some time under the hood the settings are more guidelines and technique is the name of the game in the end. That's when the art part of it comes into play IMHO.
 

Darren

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At the end of the day, its really about developing technique and knowing your machine. I think the point I was trying to make before, was that sometimes technique has to take over, and that ideal machine settings can change during the course of a weld or job.

As an auto mechanic, a lot of the welding has to be done where you can't see the weld. Exhaust, for example. Welding the top of pipe joints. Sometimes i use a mirror, sometimes i just listen. Building out exhaust studs in cylinder heads for extraction, lots of times you gotta aim the gun where you cant really see.

Sheet metal is more foregiving in way, as strength really isn't the concern. Not like structural steel anyway. Figure out what works and just as importantly, what doesn't. In structural welding, you really don't want to find out what doesn't work.
 

Susquatch

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I just used my Fluke multimeter. I have a Millermatic 130 which has a four-position voltage selector. I was spending a fair amount of time on the Welding Tips and Tricks forum trying to absorb as much info as possible. When asking for help they want to know exact numbers for voltage and wire speed in inches per minute.
Ignore the clamp bit in the title because he doesn't use a clamp meter.


I see. So there are no crazy high voltage spikes despite the arc. That just seems odd to me. I'll try it with a cheap Chinese meter I have first. Then maybe I'll use my fluke or a scope.
 

DavidR8

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I see. So there are no crazy high voltage spikes despite the arc. That just seems odd to me. I'll try it with a cheap Chinese meter I have first. Then maybe I'll use my fluke or a scope.
If I recall correctly the voltage was steady so long as I held the gun at a consistent distance from the work.
 

Susquatch

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If I recall correctly the voltage was steady so long as I held the gun at a consistent distance from the work.

That makes sense, because current is flowing through the arc at that point. But how do you adjust and measure voltage before you start the arc?
 

DavidR8

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That makes sense, because current is flowing through the arc at that point. But how do you adjust and measure voltage before you start the arc?
My machine only has four settings which are for different metal thicknesses. I needed to know what voltages they put out. I just hooked up the meter and welded a few inches while watching the meter. I noted the voltage range then went to the next setting and did it again till I had the voltage range for each setting.
 

Susquatch

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This sounds like me LOL..... My problem is that I can't see where I'm going and where I want to go and I have a auto darkening helmet. Some suggestions I've had so far include: 1. put a chalk line on the intended track and 2. shine a strong light on the work piece. Haven't tried either so far, I can only weld outside in the summer in good weather and I just wasn't in the mood last summer.

I'll take a pic of the bird bath stand I made for the wife... You'll laugh your a..s off, the welding is pathetic.

I have no idea how a light is supposed to help when you already have a high current arc going on. A white chalk line might help but I'd be worried that it would contaminate the weld. Ya, I know.... I worry too much!

I have some "bird baths" of my own here. I don't tell anybody that I did that.......
 

Darren

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My machine only has four settings which are for different metal thicknesses. I needed to know what voltages they put out. I just hooked up the meter and welded a few inches while watching the meter. I noted the voltage range then went to the next setting and did it again till I had the voltage range for each setting.

We posted at the same time. You were measuring closed circuit voltage then, which is a good indicator of how the machine is performing based on how you weld. Stickout, etc plays a factor
 

DavidR8

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We posted at the same time. You were measuring closed circuit voltage then, which is a good indicator of how the machine is performing based on how you weld. Stickout, etc plays a factor
Yes I forgot to mention stickout and its affect on voltage.
 

Darren

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I usually use a speedglass helmet for most of my work. I'm always amazed at how well i can see once i install a new lense protector
 

Tecnico

(Dave)
(Layman explanation, there are numbers out there but I'm not going to look for them right now)
There's certain material transfer phases that MIG welding goes through - their changes happen at certain voltages (https://www.aedmotorsport.com/news/mig-welding-transfer-methods) - this could be very important to help someone... amperage/IPM can impact a bunch of things but is also impacted by the user's technique... so knowing the IPM would be a great way to understand what should be happening w/in a certain voltage range.
Good discussion going on here, I'm learning things. Great videos showing the transfer method in that link complete with setup parameters.

I think the chart you're referring to is this: 180C Lincoln Settings data.png

I bumped into it on a welding forum.

I wonder if the machines that have set detents (vs CV) have rotary switches with discrete connection or if they're potentiometers with a mechanical detent....

I think I know what the short circuit transfer method "feels" & looks like, it's familiar from doing thin/sheet metal work. At times I can feel the electrode contacting the work piece.

I'm going to have to try some of the settings from the videos to replicate the globular and spray modes. I've probably worked that way but not by intentional setup. Interesting that after all this time seeing reference to the various modes this is the first I've actually seen it spelled out and with specific setup parameters. Thanks @ThirtyOneDriver for the link.

Following some of the discussion in this thread, I see that we have a common challenge seeing & following the intended bead path, for me it's the illumination contrast between the weld arc & the work piece, especially in lighter material/sheet metal. I try and plan ahead what path I'm going to take and try to follow it. That can be difficult when it's an irregular shape or going around corners on tubing etc.

Always learning!

D:cool:
 
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Darren

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So what are the typical OCVs and what happens to that voltage as the arc starts to cut in and out?

its been a few years since i worked with a machine where OCV was actually a factor, and ive never measured it on my own machines. Some welders are constant voltage/constant current, but thats usually above hobbyist grade, last time i looked.

It really doesn't matter. If we are talking MIG, my early 90's Lincoln sp170 has 5 heat settings, and infinite wire speed. a combo of both always works within the machines limitations.
 

Darren

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I'm going to have to try some of the settings from the videos to replicate the globular and spray modes.

for spray transfer, you need a mix of 80% argon, and usually a 200+ amp mig. Its a thing of beauty for sure.
 

ThirtyOneDriver

Johnathan (John)
Spray transfer is awesome, but ~ 12 months of welding training across stick, MIG, and TIG, there was only the one opportunity that it was feasible. Our welding program reflected the work we were likely to need to perform, so a lot of steel 3/8, 1/2, 3/4, 1" one mock-up crack repair in 3" armour, aluminum was 1/4" or 2" (double bevel, vertical up... this weld created blisters on the back of everyone's hands despite multiple layers of gloves and heat shields). We also did some stainless and other stuff, and I received other certifications (4130 tubing) from other schools for more specific reasons.

In practice (20 years of welding but not everyday) I've never had the opportunity to get into spray and rarely have worked on things that I could get/want globular spray transfer - keep in mind that you need to be pushing >24 or 24.5 volts and Constant Voltage to reach either of these methods... I'm not sure how many of the machines I've used were even capable... until this thread, I didn't know it needed to be a CV machine... and assumed that the machines that were portable enough to take to the job just didn't have the power to get there.

@Tecnico - that wasn't the chart I was thinking of, but after seeing it I'm kicking myself for not buying the 180C in the area for $700... I can weld 0.095" wall tubing on the retail 180s w/ both knobs maxed out (0.023" wire) so I'm making an educated guess that it's not capable of hitting 25v or 500 ipm... actually, the voltage knob doesn't go past "E" which on the 180C chart reads 19.7v ... that seems about right for what the retail 180 puts out. BTW, I didn't know that welding could be performed at 10v (setting "A")... it's kind of wild to see that low of a number on a chart like that.
 

Susquatch

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I think the chart you're referring to is this:

Wow. That's great info.

My wire welder just happens to be a Lincoln 180. But I doubt it's a 180C. The inside panel says 180T.

The feed dial is continuous but does not start at zero. The control dial has detents but I don't know if it is a reostat with detents or a rotary switch. I might take a peek under the cover later today if it's easy to do.

The drive wheels are metal not plastic.

Here is a photo of the settings chart.

20211101_132038.jpg

I have welded with it but it ain't pretty. My welds look like the Rocky Mountains not beads. I blow through sheet metal like it was saran wrap and thin stock like it was tin foil. I do ok on thick plate but it ain't pretty. The grinding wheel on my hand grinder gets lots of exercise.

I can stick weld half decent but again only on thicker plate and it ain't pretty. To be truthful, I do a better job with old style oxy-acetylene gas.

Back in the day, we had a mechanic who could weld aluminium tin foil and lay a bead on plate as smooth as spreading caulking with an electric gun. Nobody else welded because it was always..... shall we say embarrassing..... (that's the polite word for it). Today, I have a built in fear of welding.

But several people have volunteered to help get me going. I doubt it's a knowledge thing for me but I don't know what I don't know so who knows.... Prolly more of a hands on experiencial learning thing. I guess we will see. I am motivated and willing to try.
 

Hacker

Super User
Some great info and insight on this thread. Thanks for the discourse. My motto when it comes to my welding is "Grinding and paint can hide a lot of ugly".
 

ThirtyOneDriver

Johnathan (John)
@Susquatch - the main visual difference from the 180C to the retail 180s was the billet aluminum drive system (pictures) - MOST 180 retail welders have some sort of composite components (drive wheels are still steel)... my retail 180s have more plastic than the model I took the image from.

lincoln-electric-lincoln-electric-power-mig-180c-mig-welder-k2473-2__62567.1633029479.jpg 167740_1_400x400.jpg
 
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