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Auto ignition of oily rags

Probably worse. But I already said several times I don't care about the instruments left behind. It's basically insignificant. Then again, without so many standards, they would be treating way more patients, and doing more innovative treatments - which is what I really want.

Less standards to follow could potentially = even more mistakes being made and doctors might be tied-up with follow-up surgeries to correct those mistakes. But I can't prove that. Can you prove your theory of the opposite?

These people aren't creating subjective works of art. Structure, procedures, discipline, and standards are needed for repeatable successful outcomes. Subject to change but required.
 
Less standards to follow could potentially = even more mistakes being made and doctors might be tied-up with follow-up surgeries to correct those mistakes. But I can't prove that. Can you prove your theory of the opposite?

Of course not. We are just debating whether hobby machinists should be filers or pilers and in the process throwing all kinds of crap at the wall to see what sticks.

These people aren't creating subjective works of art. Structure, procedures, discipline, and standards are needed for repeatable successful outcomes. Subject to change but required.

Actually, I'd volunteer that they really are creating works of art. Every body is an individual and its amazing what they find in there.

I needed emergency surgery about 25 years ago. The surgeon who operated on me was battle hardened in the Middle East - no procedures to follow there, just bodies blown to smitherines. I'd have died following procedures and standards. I'm glad that instinct and experience guided my surgeon's hand. Anecdotal for sure, but nothing convinces a man more than having his own life on the line. I am a believer in letting experience and skill take precedence over book learning, standards, and procedures.

I think we are at the point where we need to agree to disagree no?
 
Of course not. We are just debating whether hobby machinists should be filers or pilers and in the process throwing all kinds of crap at the wall to see what sticks.

Not at all.

Anything defined as a hobby should be able to do whatever they please because the majority of society does not care what a hobby machinist does. What led to the next step was the question of are you more productive and likely to work in a safer work space if you keep organized.

There were comments and then you stated:

"the military believes that everyone is exactly the same, and if not, it forces them to conform to a common standard. What a tragic loss of talent and ability. All the many ways that individuals add unique value to the whole is lost in a single minded enforced conformance to a common standard"

Then several comments followed again trying to demonstrate the importance of why a large part of what makes the military work is conforming, standards, etc. This is the discussion. And so far I haven't seen anything that shows the military or healthcare standards of operation is counter productive. Especially, when there are thousands of years of trial and error that have led to where these institutions are today. That is some serious R&D that is difficult to refute. You can cherry pick some of the issues but overall the basic building blocks are fundamental and time tested.
 
From another angle, how would you feel about flying on an airliner, fixed by someone that thought that all it REALLY needs, is some herbs burnt for smoke, waved around the interior, instead of replacing the timed out engine...?

Nepal Airlines Sacrifices Goats​

https://www.peta.org/news/nepal-airlines-sacrifices-goats/

:p


and another one.....

Pakistan International Airlines goat slaughter mocked​

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-38368667



Appears to be common practice in the industry.

I did a google to see if there was a proper ATA code for "sacrafices" but the AI response was this....

"AI Overview

There isn't a specific ATA (Air Transport Association) code for "sacrifices." The ATA system is a standardized way to categorize aircraft systems and components for maintenance purposes. Sacrifices, in the context of aircraft, might refer to components that are intentionally designed to be replaced or damaged during an event to prevent further damage to other, more critical components. However, this is not a formal ATA category"
 
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@trevj, I have zero problems flying in an airliner repaired by mechanics who do not count their tools. Per mile travelled, WAAAY more people die in cars than in airliners. If counting tools mattered so much, car repair mechanics should be required to count their tools too.

People also sometimes find operating room tools in their bodies. Perhaps surgeons should also be required to count tools.

I am not challenging the fact that it happens. I am challenging the merits of the approach.

VERY IMPORTANT - I am not saying it's wrong to use strict conformity to following orders as an entry requirement for military service - @mbond made that case for you. However, I do think we should not blindly accept that premise as valid for the piler/filer behaviours too. At least not without allowing debate. Debate is good.

I most certainly don't agree that military customs (right or wrong) should apply to hobbiests. 2/3 of us have self confessed that we are on the messy side.

As I mentioned earlier, I plan to research this in more detail on my own.
LOL! Maybe you ought learn some about how tool control in an Airline Environment is actually conducted. Saw very similar care used in the Bell Helicopters plant and the Canadair Plants in the Montreal area. My direct thought, is that WAY more of the AME's are starting and ending their days accounting for their tools so that they don't get fired, first and foremost, and don't get found Negligent in a Civil or potentially Criminal case against them. Esp., in the larger Airlines, they seemed to me to be moving more towards the CF's model of a closed Tool Control Environment, than the techs having their own Tool Boxes. Standards, ISO, Liability issues, etc., all teaming up to push them that way.

Most, if not all the shops I went through or toured, had CNC cut foam liners in their tool boxes, and they knew where every tool they needed or used in a particular day, was.

Like I said earlier, these procedures were developed as a direct result of Lives and Assets being lost, over stupid preventable errors.

A little more on the CF and tool control. Every Tool box, Kit, or Pouch, in the Air Force, anyway, has a two letter code, representing it's Base of Origin (Cold Lake AB used "OD"), and a number that designates which box or kit it is. That letter and number combo is etched, engraved, or stamped in to every tool in that kit, right down to the interchangeable screwdriver bits. The first thing a tech does, is access the box key from the tool crib, for which they are required to sign it out. At the tool box, it is opened, and inspected for completeness, and the log book for the tool box or kit is signed, acknowledging that the tool box is complete and serviceable. End of day, or end of job, the reverse takes place, the kit is certified complete, the keys go back to the Crib and are signed in, and the appropriate Records are updated on the Aircraft Maintenance Record. Takes less time to do, than to tell about... Really.

In order to start a repair on an aircraft, it starts in the Aircraft's Records set, (pretty much mainly done on computers now, but was all hard copy forms when I started out) where a Form has been filled out detailing the issue. The tech fetches the tool kit he is likely going to need, then makes an entry stating that, for example, Tool Box OD-263, is now in use on this aircraft. That aircraft will NOT fly, until someone has inspected the toolbox, and certified it as complete, and signs off the entry. If a tool is not present, all hell breaks loose, and I have spent entire weekends combing through the fleet in Moose Jaw (we were putting 112 Tutor aircraft out on the flight line every morning, most flew at least three flights a day), searching for missing tools.

IF a tool is found in an airplane, the inquisition begins, tracing back to the Kit and it's records, a search through the aircraft records set to see if the kit had been registered as in use, and who signed it in and out. Similar forensics are used in the event of an unexplained crash, they immediately seize and secure the aircraft records, find out what was done recently, by whom, and the questions begin... NOT 'good times'!

The Forces Vehicle Mechanics that I knew, each were issued with a tool kit, of Forces Owned Tools, that they were responsible to account for and maintain. Damaged or non-serviceable tools got exhanged in their respective tool cribs, lost tools were (I was told) their personal responsibility, as often as not by administratively deducting cost of replacement tools, off their pay. They had an inventory record, and were expected to know where their tools were at all times. Some guys I knew used loosely piled tools in the drawers, others went out of their own way to make or purchase organizers so that they could tell at a glance that their tools were accounted for. The more organized the tool box is, the easier it is to have confidence that it is all there.

Sorry to hear about your folks with the extra hardware... If only the surgeon and his assistants had a standard tray of tools that had a place for each thing needed, and a process for checking that you have all, at the beginning, as well as at the end, of the procedure, eh? Which I would be fairly willing to bet, most OR's likely have standing policies denoting who is responsible or just that kind of accounting... The Flight Safety guys use a phrase regarding Swiss Cheese Theory, a reference to that depending on the holes that usually don't line up on a stack of Swiss Cheese slices, to NEVER line up, is a recipe for getting someone hurt or killed, because with enough tries at randomly shuffling and stacking all the slices, eventually, you get the holes lined up and something gets through...

When you account for all your tools at both ends of the job, fewer 'bad things' happen...
 
This has been an interesting thread

By some of the logic put forth the crow could probably perform aircraft maintenance


Bad enough people are potentially going to lose their job to AI. Watch what what happens when they hear about this. On the other hand, I see a possible future investment opportunity in scarecrows.
 
I do not agree with all that hoopla. Plain and simple.

As noted earlier. I am done with this subject.
That's too bad. I say that respectfully, as what you call Hoopla, developed out of actual dead people, and destroyed aircraft. LOTS of dead people! LOTS of destroyed Aircraft!

You are older than I. Fact. You passed a Driving Test, to get a Driver's License? If yes, then you are at least a little bit familiar with how this process works. Demonstrate an understanding of the rules, demonstrate that you are capable of following those, get a passing grade. Same in the CF. I joined the Forces, because I had no money to go to school. I got paid really pretty well, IMO, to sit in classrooms for what was cumulatively, many years. Then I had to demonstrate that I understood what I had been taught, both in Classes, and in on job training, before I was signed off for the most basic of qualifications, the ability to do a "B" check (Before Flight Inspection) or an "A" check, unsupervised. I was signing MY name, to certify that the aircraft was either Serviceable to be used, in the case of a B-Check, or capable of being re-used A-Check. My qualifications were built from there, with little or no ability to make changes as I saw fit. And yeah, there WAS an official process for suggesting changes, if they seemed to be required.

You stated that the Military system was somehow suppressing talent and ability "I find that very sad. At its most fundamental level, it means that the military believes that everyone is exactly the same, and if not, it forces them to conform to a common standard. What a tragic loss of talent and ability."

The Military does NOT believe that all are the same, but they are damned well doing their utmost, to make sure that ALL, start from a common point of reference! Meet the minimum performance Standards, move forward. Don't meet them, gets you re-coursed (sent backwards in the progression, to give you another chance to get it clear in your head, how things work), or get released, aka: fired. When all in the system understand their place and responsibilities, the system works very well. When someone deviates, it kills people. So yeah, conformity is a thing. No apologies.
 
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