Auto ignition of oily rags

[YotaBota]

@jorogi - you beat me to it LOL

 

[Susquatch]

Too late for that.

@jorogi - you beat me to it LOL

Now THAT is FUNNY! I burst out in a huge Belly Laugh.... TWICE!

You are both right of course. No hiding from that truth! I guess I should have said "earlier than scheduled" or something similar. Too late Smart too.....

 

[Chicken lights]

Now THAT is FUNNY! I burst out in a huge Belly Laugh.... TWICE!

You are both right of course. No hiding from that truth! I guess I should have said "earlier than scheduled" or something similar. Too late Smart too.....

What's the next big one, 80 or 90? I feel like the forum should pop for a cake

 

[Susquatch]

80

What's the next big one, 80 or 90? I feel like the forum should pop for a cake

80 is just around the corner for me. A few guys on here are older. At least one member is over 10 years older.

No cake and no celebration please. I wanna do the corner quietly, while taking a nice nap, through a full slide, all ahead slow to 90.

 

[trevj]

I find that very sad. At its most fundamental level, it means that the military believes that everyone is exactly the same, and if not, it forces them to conform to a common standard. What a tragic loss of talent and ability. All the many ways that individuals add unique value to the whole is lost in a single minded enforced conformance to a common standard..... This is the classic management structure that tries to make everyone an exact copy of the boss. It's a false goal. If everyone is the same, most can just stay home. The truth is that we are all individuals and our combined potential lies in capturing all our individual strengths.

As I have previously noted on this forum several times, I managed the construction and fitup of a fortune 500 office tower 20 years ago or so. In designing the office space, I had the opportunity to visit the Steelcase Research Facility where I met a Psychologist whose job it was to help design office furniture that worked for everyone and maximized workplace efficiency. I learned that there are two fundamentally different personality types: Filers and Pilers. Both are necessary and equally valuable employees.

Steelcase research showed that if you try to turn a piler into a filer, you will destroy his productivity and happiness and vice versa. Think of it like dogs and cats. Dogs are dogs and cats are cats. Dogs are not cats and cats are not dogs. If you want to have the most productive efficient workspace, you don't force either type to be the other. Instead you let them be who and what they are because accepting both types is a form of diversity allowing the combined capability to be more than the sum of each. If you empower each by giving them what they need and get out of their way, you can watch them both soar. Pilers need shelves, filers need drawers. Shelves are just as easily hidden as drawers when needed. It was a valuable lesson in life that I never forgot.

For me, it is sad to learn that our military organization forces everyone to be the same. I think we would be stronger if we recognized and valued our differences. That said, I am forever grateful to all those who served in whatever capacity to help ensure the safety and freedom of all future generations.

<shrug> Dunno what to say, Susq.

The very most basic thing you get taught starting in Basic Training, amounts to Fit in or (Bleep!) Off! FIFO. And yeah, unashamedly, they want ALL Armed Forces Members to conform to a large set of Standards! Start there and build, rather than trying to make the rest of the CF have to deal with adapting to a standard that is not conducive to carrying out the business the CF is in. If you want to be a slob in your home life, the CF does not much care, unless your home life is in CF Owned Housing, but they do expect a certain High level of conformity to the expected standards of appearance, behavior, and performance at work, and in the Public Eye. And they make it very plain, that if you wish to buck the system, it will cost you, whether it amounts to minor annoyances being brought to bear on you (like, ferinstance, being assigned to some of the crappier Secondary Duties, on a preferential basis... The Boss's preferences, not your own...), through varying higher levels of Administrative and Legal potential punishments, and, you are usually welcome to put in your papers and quit, and as was pointed out many times, by many bosses over the years, the Canadian Forces has it's own Prison, and the purpose of sending someone there is not to punish them, but to modify their behavior from what it was, to what will fit in with expectations.

Working from the perspective of having to take over complicated Aircraft repairs mid-job, one MUST be confident in the knowledge and abilities of the guy that was there before you, else it turns in to a continuous cycle of starting the same job over, and over, and over again, redoing all the work 'the other guy' did already, without ever staying on it through to finish. That other guy may be picking up the job after I worked all shift, and he needs to trust that I am not leaving him in the lurch. Commonality of Training, and Commonality of Experiences, are tools that relate well to achieving reliable outcomes, as well as being able to demonstrate to ones peers, subordinates, and superiors, that you are as capable and able as is expected of you. Lots of room for individuality, and development of other skills, habits, etc., but on the job, you are expected to follow the basic rules and regulations. And build from there.

LOTS of people have died, when lost tools foul the flight controls, so tool control IS a very high priority. No personally supplied tools, in the part of the Forces I was in, they all belong to the outfit, who buys the best they can get, and the tools I use today, have to be useful and ready for the next guy that signs for that tool box, pouch, or simply a special tool from the tool crib. So they get cleaned at day's end, accounted for, and signed off by a Supervisor. And having done so, even if you are the sole user of those tools, you will start the day with a clean work space, and clean, serviceable tools. Not seeing the supposed downside. It's not about being oppressed, so much as it is about leaving your work space and tools in the kind of shape that you wish to start using them at the beginning of your next shift.

We dealt with a lot of things that had the potential to get ourselves, or others, killed. Conformity, adherence to the Technical as well as Administrative Orders that define how the whole system is meant to work, allows any person that gets removed from almost any position, to be replaced by one of his or her peers, without a whole lot of reshaping of the whole Organization. Not a lot of room for the 'Free Thinkers', when dealing with explosives, Aircraft Repairs, flying, driving, or sailing, multi-million dollar weapons delivery systems, or integrating your particular section or unit, in to a much larger, multi-capability Force, such as, say a Deployment overseas. The Army, the Navy, and the Air Force types all start from the commonality of knowing that we all share at least enough of the common skills, knowledge of how the systems work, etc., that we can integrate a mixed group together and communicate clearly in terms that are generally understood by all. That is where the commonality of experiences and Knowledge pays for itself.

 

[DPittman]

shrug> Dunno what to say, Susq

Apparently you DO know what to say.

 

[mbond]

I think it is important to understand that different standard should apply in different situations. If you are standing in a WWI style trench and the order comes to go over the top, you absolutely need to be able to rely on all the guys - no matter how scared - to do it. That's an extreme example, but not inappropriate for the forces. And conformity is absolutely essential.

But if you are working in an R&D department, there is an obviously different standard. There you want people to be creative, and top down conformity is counter-productive.

There are lots of other examples, and lots of grey area too. And not everyone is suited to all jobs either ...

It is one of those 'your milage will vary' type of problems. Which I think is why a big company wanted to have options for how staff could be handled when building out an office. But the forces are more rigid because they _only_ do a certain kind of work - at least in the front line units.

 

[Susquatch]

Dunno what to say, Susq.

I confess that you have me thinking. Not so much about changing my view of how hobby machinists should keep their shops, which is the subject here, but rather about how that should apply in the military. Perhaps the one-size fits all has a place. But maybe it is over rated too.

I can certainly see @mbond's point when it comes down to following orders in a trench, but I think that falls apart when we start talking about tools in an aircraft. It's easy to create what-if scenarios about planes going down after losing tools in an aircraft, but not so easy to blame that on filing vs piling.

But I think that's a diversion. In my mind, the real question is whether the military is better off with identically thinking robots that strictly follow orders or unique intelligent individuals capable of strategic creative thought. I think that question is not so easy to answer.

I'll have to do some research.

 

[trevj]

I confess that you have me thinking. Not so much about changing my view of how hobby machinists should keep their shops, which is the subject here, but rather about how that should apply in the military. Perhaps the one-size fits all has a place. But maybe it is over rated too.

I can certainly see @mbond's point when it comes down to following orders in a trench, but I think that falls apart when we start talking about tools in an aircraft. It's easy to create what-if scenarios about planes going down after losing tools in an aircraft, but not so easy to blame that on filing vs piling.

But I think that's a diversion. In my mind, the real question is whether the military is better off with identically thinking robots that strictly follow orders or unique intelligent individuals capable of strategic creative thought. I think that question is not so easy to answer.

I'll have to do some research.

You placed conformity and common experiences and expectations, as if it were a negative thing, a stifling of the person doing the work, and killing of that person's creativity.

It is none of those things.

From another angle, how would you feel about flying on an airliner, fixed by someone that thought that all it REALLY needs, is some herbs burnt for smoke, waved around the interior, instead of replacing the timed out engine...? Or breaking a leg, and the 'doctor' telling you it's all in your head, rather than setting the bone...?
We, collectively, have a huge list of standards and expectations of competency, that we have so ingrained in us, that we hardly recognize that we follow it. We expect the guy representing himself as a contractor to be a competent performer in his field, we expect that the driver in the other lane, is competent, at least to a minimum standard, and not liable to decide that driving head-first into your car is a great idea... Boil that idea all the way down to the kid you hire to mow a lawn... It's a heckuva list of expectations!

There is an expectation that when we need a certain service from a professional that operates in a specific field, that they are competent and knowledgeable. Same in the Forces. You EXPECT the Cook to be able to cook a decent (enough) meal. You expect the guy that is repairing that CF-18, to be confident and capable, or at least, under the direct supervision of a competent and capable Tech that is training the new guy. You expect (and are far too often disappointed!) that your leadership is competent and capable in their field. That sounds pretty bad, but I gotta say, when you experience a decent actual Leader, it changes your perspective a little!

Like I said earlier, there IS a LOT of room for individuality and personal inputs, but that is for AFTER you have been proven capable of meeting the Forces' needs as a competent member, able to be swapped among the various positions applicable to your Rank and Trade, and Training.

On another front, I kinda shudder at trying to put a number on the times I have had some half (or less)-wit Boss, screaming at us because we were not making his pet idea "Work" like he was sure it should. Stuff like "You are just afraid of Change!". I have seen well thought out, good ideas, adopted so f**king fast, and thoroughly, that you would be hard pressed to remember how things were done before.

The CF, like many companies, also suffers from institutional inertia. A case in point, a conversation I had with one of my senior supervisors (I was a Corporal, he was a Warrant Officer) while we were staking down the porta-potties, as the Aide Memoire that was issued to the young Officer that was 'in charge' of setting up our deployment camp at CFB Suffield, told him where to place the Mess Tents as well as where to put the sh**ters. Right next to the flight line, where Taxiing Helos blew both of them over... I stated that when I was getting off the bus that brought me, one of the much more experienced guys had mentioned just this, as he was stepping off the bus. When the Warrant Officer asked why nobody had spoke up, I told him the hard truth, that people had been told to STFU and do what they were told,so many times, that now, they just rolled with it and laughed! That particular Unit was about the most sh*t place in the Military that I ever worked, and I was glad as hell to get out after only four years of it.... <spit>

The 'tools lost in aircraft' scenario, is not a "What If", it is based on actual deaths, actual losses of aircraft, and what they implemented in order to prevent those losses. Flight Safety, is one VERY huge Concern, in the Air Force! In our current state, with as few aircraft as we have in inventory, the loss of a single aircraft represents way too many percent of the whole fleet. Add that to potentially millions of dollars invested in training the personnel on board, and you can see why it is so.

 

[trevj]

Gonna post this. Because it rings true, always.

This video long outlasts MY Military experience, but so much of it rings true, even so...

 

[Susquatch]

@trevj, I have zero problems flying in an airliner repaired by mechanics who do not count their tools. Per mile travelled, WAAAY more people die in cars than in airliners. If counting tools mattered so much, car repair mechanics should be required to count their tools too.

People also sometimes find operating room tools in their bodies. Perhaps surgeons should also be required to count tools.

I am not challenging the fact that it happens. I am challenging the merits of the approach.

VERY IMPORTANT - I am not saying it's wrong to use strict conformity to following orders as an entry requirement for military service - @mbond made that case for you. However, I do think we should not blindly accept that premise as valid for the piler/filer behaviours too. At least not without allowing debate. Debate is good.

I most certainly don't agree that military customs (right or wrong) should apply to hobbiests. 2/3 of us have self confessed that we are on the messy side.

As I mentioned earlier, I plan to research this in more detail on my own.

 

[Elektrishun]

Second guessing the military's methods of getting things done which are based on thousands of years of testing in the most extreme conditions where the consequences are often a matter of life or death?

How would you prove that an organized and disciplined approach similar to the military generally works best? How about opening a shop in the most competitive location you can find? See if you can compete with equally skilled individuals who run a more organized operation? That might be the proof.

As for thinking outside the box isn't the military responsible for numerous inventions?

List of military inventions

 

[Chicken lights]

Civilian aircraft techs are very very meticulous for keeping track of tools. This was a few years ago now I was talking to a tech but I believe both start and end of shift were dedicated to cleanup/accountability of tools

 

[Sqought]

As someone who is terrible at putting away my tools, I work so much better when everything is tidy and accounted for. I forget this while I'm distracted working on things so I go between "bomb site" and "pretty clean", usually with little in-between.

 

[Elektrishun]

People also sometimes find operating room tools in their bodies. Perhaps surgeons should also be required to count tools.

Grab a coffee and look up "operating room standards" or something along those lines.

There are several to read from and surgical tool inventory is a part of those standards.

 

[Susquatch]

There are several to read from and surgical tool inventory is a part of those standards.

Maybe so. It obviously doesn't work. I know too many people who have had tools in them. That includes my FIL and my mother.

FWIW, I'm ok with that. I want my surgeon to be focussed on fixing me and using all his/her brainpower to do that as intelligently and creatively as possible. A spare tool in my body is no big deal. In fact, I'd like to delete at least 3/4 of the rules and paperwork those poor doctors have to follow. Every time I've been in emergency or the OR, those doctors spend more time filling out stupid paperwork than they do on me and other patients. I think that's wrong.

 

[Elektrishun]

Maybe so. It obviously doesn't work. I know too many people who have had tools in them. That includes my FIL and my mother.

FWIW, I'm ok with that. I want my surgeon to be focussed on fixing me and using all his/her brainpower to do that as intelligently and creatively as possible. A spare tool in my body is no big deal. In fact, I'd like to delete at least 3/4 of the rules and paperwork those poor doctors have to follow. Every time I've been in emergency or the OR, those doctors spend more time filling out stupid paperwork than they do on me and other patients. I think that's wrong.

Anecdotal evidence is not evidence that it doesn't work.

The problems that healthcare providers face are varied and complex. How successful the the practitioners are at getting results likely has less to do with the standards and more to do with how well they are able to implement them under the current conditions.

You can have a great plan but if you don't have the staff or support to implement that plan then you get poor results.

 

[Susquatch]

Anecdotal evidence is not evidence that it doesn't work.

That's true. So here are the stats. In Canada, over a recent two-year period, 553 foreign objects were left inside patients, with a rate of about 9.8 per 100,000 surgeries and a 14% increase over five years.

Doesn't matter though. That misses my point. Which is that I don't care about it. I'd rather they focussed on saving my life than worry about counting their tools.

The problems that healthcare providers face are varied and complex. How successful the the practitioners are at getting results likely has less to do with the standards and more to do with how well they are able to implement them under the current conditions.

This is true. I've had first hand experience with dealing with those problems. Nothing I want to share here but if you are curious, PM me.

 

[Elektrishun]

That's true. So here are the stats. In Canada, over a recent two-year period, 553 foreign objects were left inside patients, with a rate of about 9.8 per 100,000 surgeries and a 14% increase over five years.

Doesn't matter though. That misses my point. Which is that I don't care about it. I'd rather they focussed on saving my life than worry about counting their tools.

Not disputing that there are issues with healthcare.

But the issue we are discussing is about chaos vs organization, messy vs clean, etc.

The reason "foreign objects were left inside patients" happens isn't because they have standards of how to do things. It would be unacceptable not to have procedural standards. Why there are mistakes still being made is a whole different discussion. And maybe it's just me but 9.8 per 100,000 surgeries - is that really "not working"???

I wonder what the numbers would be without the attempt at following standards?

 

[Susquatch]

And maybe it's just me but 9.8 per 100,000 surgeries - is that really "not working"???

It's just fine with me. The point was supposed to be that it's worse than airliner stats, and that neither stat is significant.

I wonder what the numbers would be without the attempt at following standards?

Probably worse. But I already said several times I don't care about the instruments left behind. It's basically insignificant. Then again, without so many standards, they would be treating way more patients, and doing more innovative treatments - which is what I really want.