Another stray machine followed me home.

[Canadium]

So another newbie question from the clueless. What can a surface grinder do that other machines cannot? Other than grind flat surfaces.

I have often wondered; after a lathe and a mill what comes next? I thought maybe a tool and cutter grinder or maybe a shaper to cut splines. I want to cut splines! Or maybe a surface grinder although I don't really know why the SG. What would you guys get after the lathe and mill?

 

[DavidR8]

So another newbie question from the clueless. What can a surface grinder do that other machines cannot? Other than grind flat surfaces.

I have often wondered; after a lathe and a mill what comes next? I thought maybe a tool and cutter grinder or maybe a shaper to cut splines. I want to cut splines! Or maybe a surface grinder although I don't really know why the SG. What would you guys get after the lathe and mill?

I think it all depends on what kind of projects you want to do and what tolerances you need.
I sold mine because a) I wasn't using it and b) I needed the space

 

[Dabbler]

@Canadium With more tooling, the SG can do a lot. Just like a mill can be more versatile with a rotary table, indexer, and other accessories the SG gets wider tasks also.

Making tapers , precision angles, precise curves, making tooling (and sharpening them also) One can make the punches for a punch and die set, make precision fit-ups an order of magnitude closer than a milling machine.

A CNC grinder can do a lot more than that.

 

[Dan Dubeau]

Sounds like quite an adventure Susquatch. I hope the surface grinder brings many years of trouble free ownership for the headache it's caused you so far. What's that saying about what doesn't kill makes us stronger? You've got a really good Wife.

 

[140mower]

I'm gunna take a big risk here and just say it out loud to put it out there.

I HATE all these stupid "special days". Mother's day, Father's day, Valentine's day, Thanksgiving Day, Sectetary"s day, Boss's day, blah blah blah blah..... All designed to make money selling cards gifts and junk and forget something and get killed.

My mother used to say, "If you are only gunna do something special for me on special days, then don't bother."

Your father was a lucky man.

 

[Susquatch]

The app TruckerPath is helpful, it lists gas stations, truck stops, walmarts, rest areas etc. It also shows where you are on the map + direction of travel. I like Expedia for hotels, but there’s a bunch of sites now that help. In the USA I’ll use Lyft instead of cabs. It doesn’t need a physical address to be able to send a car to you, which 95% of the time I have no idea where I am or where I’m going. Drives me bonkers being parked at a weigh scale or welcome centre and trying to order a pizza, a lot of those places don’t HAVE an actual address.

I guess after the 50th or 60th time of being broke down I take it in stride a little more. That and I only have to worry about one persons safety.

You picked the best time of year to break down, in my opinion. Middle of the summer is almost as bad as middle of the winter. I’m not sure if that’s a great thing to point out to the sawed off better half?

Good stuff. I'm the one the mosquitos like. So gimme winter over summer any time. Ya, you are right. Early May was perfect. We walked the whole area looking for food and shelter and it was actually nice!

I'll give those apps a gander.

Thanks!

 

[chip4charlie]

I have often wondered; after a lathe and a mill what comes next? I thought maybe a tool and cutter grinder or maybe a shaper to cut splines. I want to cut splines! Or maybe a surface grinder although I don't really know why the SG. What would you guys get after the lathe and mill?

New wheel bearings for all the vehicles?

 

[Susquatch]

OMG! I was able to find lubrication instructions and parts manuals for this KO Lee S612 thanks to @thestelster. But sadly no operations manual yet......

In reading the lubrication instructions I was astounded to discovered that you oil the table ways on this thing by simply lifting the table off the ways and filling some oil reservoirs. Suddenly I was overwhelmed with anxiety. The table is not restrained! What would have happened if I hit a bump in the road on the drive home?

I don't suppose anyone has a user manual for it?

 

[Mcgyver]

haha your first surface grinder move. Now you know. If its anything like the same sized tool grinder, the ways will look like this....pockets with sprung wheels to carry the oil up They are in the Z axis as well.

This was the condition of mine before a ground up scraping job...gag

 

[Susquatch]

haha your first surface grinder move. Now you know. If its anything like the same sized tool grinder, the ways will look like this....pockets with sprung wheels to carry the oil up They are in the Z axis as well.

This was the condition of mine before a ground up scraping job...gag

View attachment 23703

Yes, the Lee uses the same wheels. I think it's a pretty cool system I do not know if my wheels are spring loaded though because I have not taken the table off yet. Here is a photo.



I did not see any wheels on the apron ways but it's really hard to see in there.

The apron also has keeper plates so it doesn't come off like the table does.

 

[Susquatch]

I have noticed that my grinding finish has a teeny tiny wee little itsy bitsy of a wave to it. It's virtually indiscernable without a very critical eye.

But a big part of using a surface grinder is balancing and dressing the wheels. I have a diamond dressing stone, but I don't have a balancer.

I would like to make a new arbour that includes a balancing ring and a balancing fixture.

In looking at the Sopko arbour, I noticed that they have a recess in the taper. I don't know why. I would guess it is to improve the taper fit. But doing it that way also reduces the contact area.

See the attached drawing. The taper is shown with a T, and the recess is shown with an R.



My original arbor does not have the recess. It's just a straight taper for the whole length. What do you guys recommend - a straight taper or one with the recess?

 

[Mcgyver]

My original arbor does not have the recess

Arbor? or adapter?

If your original adapter doesn't have the recess, why do you think it matches the one in that drawing? There isn't just one flavour.

Most imbalance goes away with dressing. The wee bit of clearance between wheel and mount means a wheel is eccentric when you mount it. When you dress it, you removed the OD ecentricity which is most of the imbalance. What do you mean diamond dressing stone? You use a diamond point mounted on the table to dress not a stone....that way you get the OD truly concentric

 

[Ian Moss]

In my experience, the arbor does not have a recess. Your picture is for the wheel mounting hub that does have a recess. I suspect that this makes the hub easier to remove when changing wheels. It is preferred to have a dedicated hub for each wheel, so that once trued and balanced, wheel/hub assemblies can be changed with minimal need for truing and balancing. I use 5 minute epoxy to add weight to the light side of wheel/hub assemblies. The epoxy sticks well to the stone and can be made slightly heavy and then trimmed to balance with a sanding sleeve in a Dremel tool. I add the epoxy to both sides of the wheel in equal amounts since adding weight to only one side of the wheel may provide balance in a static test but could potentially contribute some small dynamic imbalance at speed.

 

[Mcgyver]

It is preferred to have a dedicated hub for each wheel, so that once trued and balanced, wheel/hub assemblies can be changed with minimal need for truing and balancing.

I'd go one step further and say there is really no point in balancing a wheel without it being on an adapter it stays put on.

 

[Susquatch]

Arbor? or adapter?

If your original adapter doesn't have the recess, why do you think it matches the one in that drawing? There isn't just one flavour.

Most imbalance goes away with dressing. The wee bit of clearance between wheel and mount means a wheel is eccentric when you mount it. When you dress it, you removed the OD ecentricity which is most of the imbalance. What do you mean diamond dressing stone? You use a diamond point mounted on the table to dress not a stone....that way you get the OD truly concentric

The English language sucks. My use of it only makes it worse.

To me, anything that holds something else in place while it spins is an arbour. But since there is other hardware that is more appropriately called an arbour for this application, I should have called it an adapter.

Sorry also for my misleading description. My original oem adapter (very old) has no recess. It also has relatively low contact on the large diameter of the taper on the adapter. The correct Sopko adapter (cross checked with multiple sources) for my machine has a recess. Maybe they know something that KOLee didn't. Therefore I wonder about the wisdom of making a new arbour with or without the recess. Looking for advice on that.

By diamond stone, I mean diamond point. It does a great job of dressing my wheel.

You are a talented, experienced, and knowledgeable member @Mcgyver. I know that from reading your many excellent posts. If you say my wheels do not need balancing, you have my full attention. However, that advice at least seems to conflict with what I have read and been given elsewhere. So now you have me doubting the need to balance my wheels. But regardless of that, I'd like to make a Combo balancing adapter. If for no other reason than because I can and someday I'll have the time to actually do it. That will also provide an opportunity to experiment and see whether or not balancing makes any difference.

I confess that I actually searched YouTube for videos on surface plate setup and wheel balancing. The first (and last) video I looked at was one by Suburban Tools. When he took a drill to the stone to balance it, I pressed stop and abandoned you tube once again. First he talks about the need to make sure the wheel is not cracked, and then he drills holes in it! I have to wonder about my sanity even giving it that one shot. I really don't care if anyone else does it that way. It's way too much like playing Russian roulette with a loaded gun for me. I'm NOT doing that no matter who says it's ok.

 

[Susquatch]

In my experience, the arbor does not have a recess. Your picture is for the wheel mounting hub that does have a recess. I suspect that this makes the hub easier to remove when changing wheels. It is preferred to have a dedicated hub for each wheel, so that once trued and balanced, wheel/hub assemblies can be changed with minimal need for truing and balancing. I use 5 minute epoxy to add weight to the light side of wheel/hub assemblies. The epoxy sticks well to the stone and can be made slightly heavy and then trimmed to balance with a sanding sleeve in a Dremel tool. I add the epoxy to both sides of the wheel in equal amounts since adding weight to only one side of the wheel may provide balance in a static test but could potentially contribute some small dynamic imbalance at speed.

Sounds Good. I like devcon plastic steel epoxy.

 

[gerritv]

In looking at the Sopko arbour, I noticed that they have a recess in the taper. I don't know why. I would guess it is to improve the taper fit. But doing it that way also reduces the contact area.

The drawing is for a hub, you need one per wheel. Even on a d-bit grinder there is no point mounting wheels on the actual shaft. Which is why I made a batch for the Alexander.

The relief 'T' is to reduce the risk of grit and marring from messing with the fit of the taper on spindle. These hubs don't need a lot of surface to hold well on the taper. And makes it easier to release.

Re: balancing, recent experience of a friend here would indicate that balance is vital. You could feel the floor vibrate slightly when the wheel was up to speed. A brief balancing session (with a balancing hub) and now smooth as silk. Then you dress the grinding surface and sides, then check balance for good measure.

Here is a video from an instructor (not a YT personality looking for subscribers) on how to balance a wheel:

Gerrit

 

[Susquatch]

The drawing is for a hub, you need one per wheel. Even on a d-bit grinder there is no point mounting wheels on the actual shaft. Which is why I made a batch for the Alexander.

The relief 'T' is to reduce the risk of grit and marring from messing with the fit of the taper on spindle. These hubs don't need a lot of surface to hold well on the taper. And makes it easier to release.

Re: balancing, recent experience of a friend here would indicate that balance is vital. You could feel the floor vibrate slightly when the wheel was up to speed. A brief balancing session (with a balancing hub) and now smooth as silk. Then you dress the grinding surface and sides, then check balance for good measure.

Here is a video from an instructor (not a YT personality looking for subscribers) on how to balance a wheel:

Gerrit

OK @gerritv. On the strength of your advice I'll watch one more video - when I get home.

 

[gerritv]

I avoid wathcing the 'Im a personality looking to make money off YT nonsense' 'machinists' Like Ave, Abom and a load of others. ThatLazyMachinist is an ex-instructor, he has excellent videos, theory and practical. OTOH Suburban Tool makes a living grinding and rebuilding grinders. He isn't the first to remove some material from a wheel to balance it. But it wouldn't be my preference due to lack of practice, and nerve.

 

[Mcgyver]

If you say my wheels do not need balancing, you have my full attention. However, that advice at least seems to conflict with what I have read and been given elsewhere.

thanks for the kind remarks. Its shades of grey and probabilities imo. Most commercial guys afaik don't balance them, which is a function of their working with larger heavy grinders that damp small vibrations better than light. I would argue with those guys that you can't completely dismiss the idea of balancing, balancing might matter on a small light grinder. That's a bit theoretical in that results depends on wheel, finish desired, work etc...but in my practical experience balancing is not necessary or critical to success. I'll rephrase that...in my experience the state of balance after dressing the OD of a quality wheel is good enough. Dressing removes the OD eccentricity which is most of the imbalance and so long as the wheel is not disturbed (that's why put a VFD on the SG, so there is no jarring to disturb the wheel) it should work well.

I do recall once a Camel wheel that was so badly out of balance it was unusable dressed or not. I balanced it and its work well since.

It won't hurt to balance, I just didn't find it very impactful when I was chasing the best finish possible. A very well balanced motor, 3P, flood, soft start, quality wheel correctly selected, properly mounted chuck, dressed wheel etc are what had biggest impact. If you are going to balance you definitely need to fix the wheel to the adapter and leave it on the adapter for balancing and grinding...if you take it off the adapter you start over.