ABS Pipe Annular Cutter

[Susquatch]

If they are failing in that area that is a stress point for any flexing if the pipe is not properly supported.

I think the support is actually quite good. The North South pipes all go through holes in the web of the silent floor joists, and the East West pipes are hung from straps every 3 ft or so.

My biggest suspicion is the expansion and contraction of the long runs. But the pipes are not constrained so that is a long shot.

 

[Hacker]

Different runs, fitting type and sizes makes me think that the manufacture got something wrong in the process. I suspect you are going to become very proficient at replacing those fittings.

 

[curmudgeon]

That's what makes this so weird. Mine are not failing at the stress point or the glue line. They are failing in the couplers.

If the ABS pipe is not cut square, or the exterior is not deburred, or the pipes are not fully inserted/twisted into the couplings then there are increased chances for excess amounts of ABS cement (more is not always better) to puddle inside the fittings and weaken them where marked.

Although it would be interesting to see a longitudinal cross section of a failed fitting to guess if the failures were due to a manufacturing or installation defect, it won't help @Susquatch replace all of the defective fittings. Replacing drains when both ends are already connected is not fun: This weekend I will finish the project to connect our house to the City sewer system. Previously, all branch drains connected to a 4" cast iron pipe partially buried in the crawl space leading west to the septic tank. Now, all the branch drains have been rerouted to a new 4" ABS collector leading east and then south to a pump tank containing a pair of pumps to lift the 34' elevation to the City's sewer line at the road. Passed final inspection yesterday, all that's left is to cap the end of the old cast iron pipe in the crawlspace, and finish filling the old septic tank.

 

[Susquatch]

Although it would be interesting to see a longitudinal cross section of a failed fitting to guess if the failures were due to a manufacturing or installation defect

I'll try to section a few of the failed parts. Not sure what to expect.

 

[Former Member]

Reading through all this, normally I would agree, age, length, expansion, contraction, and the list goes on.

But in this case sorry to say big hairy friend, you pissed off some god and well you are in for leaky pipes until they/it are satisfied in tormenting you.

 

[6.5 Fan]

Perhaps a complete tear down and replacement of all plumbing is required. $$$$$$$$$

 

[Former Member]

I must say while laughing, we all go thru this, preferably not too often.

Just remember when you looking for problems they will fund you so sometimes ignorance is bliss (even though we pay for it later).

 

[Susquatch]

Here is a shot of the failed coupler. The stains are the result of the leak.



Here is a section through the straight coupler. Ignore the lengthwise gradient. It's just an artifact of my efforts to polish the sample in order to see the crack and the material around it better.



I don't see anything to suggest that the solvent damaged the integrity of the coupler. It still looks like substandard quality and/or excessive stress to me.

 

[Former Member]

Here is a shot of the failed coupler. The stains are the result of the leak.

View attachment 27879

Here is a section through the straight coupler. Ignore the lengthwise gradient. It's just an artifact of my efforts to polish the sample in order to see the crack and the material around it better.

View attachment 27880

I don't see anything to suggest that the solvent damaged the integrity of the coupler. It still looks like substandard quality and/or excessive stress to me.

I would agree with your assessment and would lean towards stress likely a little tension (bending) on it combined with movement, expansion/contraction and that's where it failed.

Ultimately who knows.....

Hopefully these experiences are coming to an end for you.

 

[historicalarms]

I must say while laughing, we all go thru this, preferably not too often.

Just remember when you looking for problems they will fund you so sometimes ignorance is bliss (even though we pay for it later).

Kind'a reminds me of turning the volume up on the truck tunes to drown out some foreign noise coming from something that you know is going to cost you some bucks....works until you run out of volume.

 

[curmudgeon]

I don't see anything to suggest that the solvent damaged the integrity of the coupler. It still looks like substandard quality and/or excessive stress to me.

Agreed. Good pics. G'luck with your repairs.

 

[RobinHood]

IDK…

Legend: (it was hard to see exactly where each part of the glued assembly is. Maybe using some liquid to wet the ABS might show the glue line between the pipe and the coupler better?).

blue => glue
green => coupler
red => pipes



Look at the interface between the pipe and the shoulder of the coupler… looks like the pipe coming from the bottom in the picture did not make it all the way to the center shoulder (ie, it did not bottom out) on assembly leaving a glue puddle. The crack emanates right from that area out. Bet that puddle of glue was on the bottom of the coupler as assembled in the run.

If my observation is correct, it could be a failure because of excess glue - as discussed in posts above.

If you have another failed joint you could cross-section, see if it looks the same.

 

[Susquatch]

IDK…

Legend: (it was hard to see exactly where each part of the glued assembly is. Maybe using some liquid to wet the ABS might show the glue line between the pipe and the coupler better?).

blue => glue
green => coupler
red => pipes

View attachment 27887

Look at the interface between the pipe and the shoulder of the coupler… looks like the pipe coming from the bottom in the picture did not make it all the way to the center shoulder (ie, it did not bottom out) on assembly leaving a glue puddle. The crack emanates right from that area out. Bet that puddle of glue was on the bottom of the coupler as assembled in the run.

If my observation is correct, it could be a failure because of excess glue - as discussed in posts above.

If you have another failed joint you could cross-section, see if it looks the same.

If you make the green fatter and red thinner to end where your blue is, that would be about right.

But yes, the crack starts where the pipe didn't fully seat.

I had thought perhaps the shorter engagement might have put more cantilever anchor forces on the coupling and stressed it excessively. But I've glued a lot of ABS in my life and can't always get the pipe all the way in. It's never been a problem before.

I didn't do the original install though.

I thought I had the other fitting, but I think the bride pitched it. I'll look for it again. I doubt it has the same concern cuz it broke much further up the adapter.

Lemme look.

 

[DPittman]

This thread has made me worry.

I replaced all the steel and cast iron dwv plumbing in my house down to the floor about 25-30 years ago. Although I have never had an ounce of problem with it, I am now worried about the abs I used and I certainly would have used an excess amount of glue at times.

 

[Former Member]

This thread has made me worry.

I replaced all the steel and cast iron dwv plumbing in my house down to the floor about 25-30 years ago. Although I have never had an ounce of problem with it, I am now worried about the abs I used and I certainly would have used an excess amount of glue at times.

Truthfully, I've done the same over 40 years and am not worried. Some pipe I know are under a little stress and to date never had issues (yet). The only failure I've had is where significant stress was applied (installation error on my part, I knew from the get go and gambled it work, it didn't long term) failure occurred with 5-10 years and I've only had 2 such failures.

 

[Susquatch]

I've only had 2 such failures

That's two more than anyone should ever expect in a lifetime.

I can't understand why any material that is used for sewer connections can't handle some stress. Stress happens.

I'm much more than a little pissed off about it right now.

 

[Former Member]

That's two more than anyone should ever expect in a lifetime.

I can't understand why any material that is used for sewer connections can't handle some stress. Stress happens.

I'm much more than a little pissed off about it right now.

Well a lot of stress (like I said it was a gamble and I really forced it after the fact).

 

[DPittman]

That's two more than anyone should ever expect in a lifetime.

I can't understand why any material that is used for sewer connections can't handle some stress. Stress happens.

I'm much more than a little pissed off about it right now.

Totally understandable to feel that way, heck I even had to rant to my wife what a horrible thing that is and how it could happen (bad pipes)

 

[Susquatch]

If an excessive amount of ABS cement was used during assembly, and the pipe was not fully inserted into the fittings, might there have been large pools of ABS cement which would have weakened the ABS fittings.

I don't know what to make of this. Yes, the regular connection that I sectioned was not fully seated and yes there was excess cement pooled up there. But I can't really see why that would weaken the connector.

For that matter, how does anyone control the amount of cement used or where it pools. Isn't this situation a standard consideration that happens all over the place in any given house? Why can't the fittings handle that?

What the heck does a fellow do when such a pipe connection fails in the walls between floors? Or in the first floor ceiling below the second floor in a two story home?

This whole thing is just plain wrong.

I did a little digging and found this online.

"In some areas, California for instance, ABS pipe is prohibited (illegal) to use. Because ABS is often a recycled or “regrind” plastic resin (to make it cost-competitive with PVC), it was essentially weakened. This caused instances of pipe fatigue and failure which led some areas to ban its use."

Just Fg great. I have a whole house full of the crappy stuff.....

Also found lots of references suggesting it should not be left outside because it degrades rapidly in sunlight. Somebody should tell that to the plumbing supply places.....

I did find a whole bunch of references that recommended a fiberglass epoxy wrap instead of removing and replacing fittings. Wish I saw that earlier..

 

[Former Member]

I don't know what to make of this. Yes, the regular connection that I sectioned was not fully seated and yes there was excess cement pooled up there. But I can't really see why that would weaken the connector.

For that matter, how does anyone control the amount of cement used or where it pools. Isn't this situation a standard consideration that happens all over the place in any given house? Why can't the fittings handle that?

What the heck does a fellow do when such a pipe connection fails in the walls between floors? Or in the first floor ceiling below the second floor in a two story home?

This whole thing is just plain wrong.

I did a little digging and found this online.

"In some areas, California for instance, ABS pipe is prohibited (illegal) to use. Because ABS is often a recycled or “regrind” plastic resin (to make it cost-competitive with PVC), it was essentially weakened. This caused instances of pipe fatigue and failure which led some areas to ban its use."

Just Fg great. I have a whole house full of the crappy stuff.....

Also found lots of references suggesting it should not be left outside because it degrades rapidly in sunlight. Somebody should tell that to the plumbing supply places.....

I did find a whole bunch of references that recommended a fiberglass epoxy wrap instead of removing and replacing fittings. Wish I saw that earlier..

BTW so is PVC and it has the same issues. Recycled that is.