Tool 20ton Hydraulic press mystery

[Dan Dubeau]

Nice brake. I like that. Still have not decided on my design yet. One of the reasons I wanted to get my shaper going was so I could use it to mill a vee block, as I'm leaning towards a more machined press brake style with interchangeable fingers.....Still deciding. Still a few projects away from actually needing it.

 

[trevj]

Dunno if I posted it here or in another thread, but you could do a lot worse, than to look at the Swag Offroad site https://www.swagoffroad.com/collections/swag-press-brake-kits and steal a couple of their design ideas, if you don't simply buy their kit.

 

[DavidR8]

KMS also has their press brake on sale.

Magnum Press Brake Attachment

Magnum's Press Brake Attachment is an excellent choice for making accurate length bends at angles of up to 90° in mild steel and aluminum at thicknesses of up to 3/8". This press brake makes it easy to create complex shapes with your 12 or 20 ton hydrauli

www.kmstools.com

 

[Dan Dubeau]

KMS also has their press brake on sale.

Magnum Press Brake Attachment

Magnum's Press Brake Attachment is an excellent choice for making accurate length bends at angles of up to 90° in mild steel and aluminum at thicknesses of up to 3/8". This press brake makes it easy to create complex shapes with your 12 or 20 ton hydrauli

www.kmstools.com

Saw that in the email today. I like it too, but would prefer fingers. I could always make a separate finger upper....BUT, I have more steel in the rack, than money in the bank right now, so.......

When I design stuff like this for my use I tend to do it 2 ways. Try to think of every single project I'm going to possibly use it for, and try to come up with a bunch of creative ways to build it, and make it as complicated and feature packed as possible . Or I have a peek in the material rack, drag out the easiest to access chunks that could work, and whip up something as quick as possible and get to using it..... The first method is the one that leads to things that never get done (cough belt grinder cough) but it's the most mentally enjoyable to me. The 2nd is probably what's going to happen here, as the first couple projects I want it for, I don't actually NEED a finger brake to make, I just want one lol.

I might do the same with my belt grinder too, and just make a simple and cheap non adjustable one, as it would sure be handy......

 

[trevj]

Saw that in the email today. I like it too, but would prefer fingers. I could always make a separate finger upper....BUT, I have more steel in the rack, than money in the bank right now, so.......

When I design stuff like this for my use I tend to do it 2 ways. Try to think of every single project I'm going to possibly use it for, and try to come up with a bunch of creative ways to build it, and make it as complicated and feature packed as possible . Or I have a peek in the material rack, drag out the easiest to access chunks that could work, and whip up something as quick as possible and get to using it..... The first method is the one that leads to things that never get done (cough belt grinder cough) but it's the most mentally enjoyable to me. The 2nd is probably what's going to happen here, as the first couple projects I want it for, I don't actually NEED a finger brake to make, I just want one lol.

I might do the same with my belt grinder too, and just make a simple and cheap non adjustable one, as it would sure be handy......

You 'could' split the difference, and make the press, but buy the Swag Offroad finger kits as needed! Or draw up your own fingers and have a laser or waterjet shop pound out a few dozen of each style...

One idea I saw in a home built rig was a couple round channels in a press brake base, that had half-round bars in them that could pivot up and support thinner stock when bending. Not that hard to pull off, with a milling machine and a ball end end mill... Eg: https://press-brake-products.fabsup...dies/model-4-rolla-v-press-brake-dies/rvm90-4

LOTS of great ideas out there in the Tool and Die world, worth stealing!

 

[Dan Dubeau]

I decided to force my hand and just go out and see what the scrap pile said....

Started with my springs to see what I had, then found a bent 3/4" bar that had a enough straight sections, then found a pipe that slipped over that...one thing led to another.....





Then I found some 3/8"x3.5" flat bar to make the base


Some angle to make the vee


Next was decision time. The larger 3/4"x4" bar in the back, or the smaller 1/2"x2" one in the front.....


Smaller 1/2"x2" won. Need to save the bigger one for something else more important lol


Just enough straight section for the 16" I needed. I rescue a lot of steel from abusive homes it would seem......

A few more cuts, and here we are. Not bad for about 35 minutes of playing around.


Not super heavy duty, but should do about 80% of what I want. Things like 1"-2"x1/4 flatbar, and 10ga-1/8" plates the full width (might be a stretch for that) Gotta remember it's a hand crank press too, so.....

Probably wont get it cleaned up and welded out until the weekend, but the fun part is done.

 

[Dan Dubeau]

You 'could' split the difference, and make the press, but buy the Swag Offroad finger kits as needed! Or draw up your own fingers and have a laser or waterjet shop pound out a few dozen of each style...

One idea I saw in a home built rig was a couple round channels in a press brake base, that had half-round bars in them that could pivot up and support thinner stock when bending. Not that hard to pull off, with a milling machine and a ball end end mill... Eg: https://press-brake-products.fabsup...dies/model-4-rolla-v-press-brake-dies/rvm90-4

LOTS of great ideas out there in the Tool and Die world, worth stealing!

I like those rotating dies. They certainly have their place.

One of the ideas I was rolling around was to design it for commercial punches and dies, and try to find some used ones, or damaged with enough good section I can use. I've seen them sell for dirt cheap quite a few times over the years (none right now locally). Somewhat of a waste on my smaller hand crank press, but If I ever get/build a bigger one, I'll probably go that route to be more versatile.

I have a 24" diacro finger brake that will do any of the enclosure stuff I was thinking I'd want the finger for. Not thicker stuff, but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. I'm going to make a rounded punch for this one too, once I straighten out the rest of that 1/2"x2" bar.....

It's too tough to try and plan for every possible scenario, sometimes you just gotta roll with it as they come. I have a hard time reminding myself of that sometimes.....

 

[Dan Dubeau]

Cool idea....Gotta try this.

There's actually a lot of practical uses with 3rd printed dies I want to play around with.

 

[trevj]

I like those rotating dies. They certainly have their place.

One of the ideas I was rolling around was to design it for commercial punches and dies, and try to find some used ones, or damaged with enough good section I can use. I've seen them sell for dirt cheap quite a few times over the years (none right now locally). Somewhat of a waste on my smaller hand crank press, but If I ever get/build a bigger one, I'll probably go that route to be more versatile.

I have a 24" diacro finger brake that will do any of the enclosure stuff I was thinking I'd want the finger for. Not thicker stuff, but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. I'm going to make a rounded punch for this one too, once I straighten out the rest of that 1/2"x2" bar.....

It's too tough to try and plan for every possible scenario, sometimes you just gotta roll with it as they come. I have a hard time reminding myself of that sometimes.....

I finally found a DiAcro brake last year and bought it, it came mounted on a table, with a BUNCH of other stuff, like a DiAcro shear, a sheet roll, and a corner notcher, plus a bar folder!

My experience with bending heavier materials, is that a 90 degree angle is not as much worth bending (most of the time), as you can simply cut and weld a couple pieces of flat together. Where a brake REALLY gets handy, is when you need far less, or far more, than a simple 90 degree bend!

Last sheet metal shop I worked in, we had a brake that would do a 10 foot length of 1/4" mild steel in. It was pretty nice! But the REAL joy, was that we had a bunch of smaller manual brakes, that had full bars as well as fingers, with various radii on them, so as to be able to bend nesting parts and to not over bend harder aluminum alloys.

 

[Jswain]

I decided to force my hand and just go out and see what the scrap pile said....

Started with my springs to see what I had, then found a bent 3/4" bar that had a enough straight sections, then found a pipe that slipped over that...one thing led to another.....
View attachment 42495
View attachment 42496
View attachment 42503
View attachment 42499

Then I found some 3/8"x3.5" flat bar to make the base
View attachment 42497

Some angle to make the vee
View attachment 42500

Next was decision time. The larger 3/4"x4" bar in the back, or the smaller 1/2"x2" one in the front.....
View attachment 42501

Smaller 1/2"x2" won. Need to save the bigger one for something else more important lol
View attachment 42502

Just enough straight section for the 16" I needed. I rescue a lot of steel from abusive homes it would seem......

A few more cuts, and here we are. Not bad for about 35 minutes of playing around.
View attachment 42506

Not super heavy duty, but should do about 80% of what I want. Things like 1"-2"x1/4 flatbar, and 10ga-1/8" plates the full width (might be a stretch for that) Gotta remember it's a hand crank press too, so.....

Probably wont get it cleaned up and welded out until the weekend, but the fun part is done.

Looks awesome already! I think you'll be quite surprised with what it will bend, I've done 6"+ 1/4" plate and I think ~ 3-4" 3/8 plate with mine on a 12t press. 2" 1/4 flat bar will bend on yours like it's not even there.

 

[Dan Dubeau]

Looks awesome already! I think you'll be quite surprised with what it will bend, I've done 6"+ 1/4" plate and I think ~ 3-4" 3/8 plate with mine on a 12t press. 2" 1/4 flat bar will bend on yours like it's not even there.

Thanks. I'm Looking forward to having some thick bending capability in the shop. I'm sure i'll find even more uses for it once I have it.

 

[Dan Dubeau]

I finally found a DiAcro brake last year and bought it, it came mounted on a table, with a BUNCH of other stuff, like a DiAcro shear, a sheet roll, and a corner notcher, plus a bar folder!

My experience with bending heavier materials, is that a 90 degree angle is not as much worth bending (most of the time), as you can simply cut and weld a couple pieces of flat together. Where a brake REALLY gets handy, is when you need far less, or far more, than a simple 90 degree bend!

Last sheet metal shop I worked in, we had a brake that would do a 10 foot length of 1/4" mild steel in. It was pretty nice! But the REAL joy, was that we had a bunch of smaller manual brakes, that had full bars as well as fingers, with various radii on them, so as to be able to bend nesting parts and to not over bend harder aluminum alloys.

I have zero experience bending anything beyond some trials, and little brackets etc with my diacro. Just a youtube university undergraduate degree It, and the 36" diacro shear I have were rescued from a hoarders barn and in pretty rough shape. I need to remake about 6" worth of fingers, and give it all a good cleanup. Someday....I have no desire to restore them to factory condition, but just want them be be functional.

Previously if I needed to bend anything heavy, I'd kerf bend it, or heat and beat in a vise.

 

[trevj]

FWIW, I was in KMS and looked at the $250 'on-sale' bender. Save your money IMO.

A fella who has to borrow the neighbors car battery, and jumper cables, to use for welding, should have no trouble making at least as nice a rig, likely from material found alongside the road! Might also need a couple zip disks and an angle grinder of questionable heritage!

 

[Dan Dubeau]

Finally got the punch machined




Machined to 88*. I should be able to get it welded up and finished this weekend. Hopefully. We're supposed to get a bunch of snow so I imagine we'll spend most of the weekend on the ski hill.

Yes, there's a slight bend in it. I machined it clamped to the table, so the vee follows the bend. I'll wait until after I weld it up before trying to straighten it as that'll probably warp it some too. With any luck it might come out perfect

 

[Dan Dubeau]

It's all done 'cept a bit of cleanup and fiddling, and paint. Not a lot of progress pics. Between my immune system all weekend barely staying ahead of whatever has kept my Wife down for the past 2 weeks, and the tumble I took down the skihill earlier today It was all I could do just to keep moving and get it done. Time to hold the couch down until bedtime.




I slotted the bushings and pinched them in a vise to tighten them up a bit on the guides.





Grabbed a chunk of 3/8"x 1" form the chip pan of the saw, and gave it a try.


Perfect lol. Not sure what happened here. Too sharp of a punch?


Wife called me for dinner just as I was taking that picture, so I didn't try anything else. Won't be going back out tonight, but I'm looking forward to give it a whirl on a few different things later when I get some time.

Slowly chipping away at the unfinished projects pile.....

 

[Jswain]

It's all done 'cept a bit of cleanup and fiddling, and paint. Not a lot of progress pics. Between my immune system all weekend barely staying ahead of whatever has kept my Wife down for the past 2 weeks, and the tumble I took down the skihill earlier today It was all I could do just to keep moving and get it done. Time to hold the couch down until bedtime.

View attachment 42952
View attachment 42951

I slotted the bushings and pinched them in a vise to tighten them up a bit on the guides.
View attachment 42949
View attachment 42950
View attachment 42953
View attachment 42946

Grabbed a chunk of 3/8"x 1" form the chip pan of the saw, and gave it a try.
View attachment 42947

Perfect lol. Not sure what happened here. Too sharp of a punch?
View attachment 42948

Wife called me for dinner just as I was taking that picture, so I didn't try anything else. Won't be going back out tonight, but I'm looking forward to give it a whirl on a few different things later when I get some time.

Slowly chipping away at the unfinished projects pile.....

Might be too sharp or might have pushed too much into it. Looks awesome tho!

I noticed mine will deform it in the middle if I push into it too much and that's with a 12t and soft edge so I'd imagine yours would shear anything fairly narrow lol

 

[Dan Dubeau]

Thanks. I figure I have a learning curve ahead of me on what I can, and should not do with it.

 

[trevj]

Do some reading about "K factor" for bends, and how it is calculated. It has to do with the thickness of the material, and calculating the Bend allowance, so you can get the end dimensions you want, without always making it too long and cutting it down every time...

IMO, you did well to get that thick of material, that far bent, before a blowout. Even if the material is dead soft. Eventually the stretch on one side, or the compression on the other, plus work hardening from the metal movement, does the part in.

You can soften the bend area, by drawing a line where the bend will go, with a Sharpie marker, then heat that line with a torch until the line fades away. A useful way to make tight bends on -T3, -T4, and -T6 sheet stock, when bending in a brake.

Usually, you either use thinner material, or you "pack" the nose of the press die with material to provide a larger radius around which to bend.

 

[Susquatch]

Now, I can finally get on with making a press brake attachment, and 3d printing some dimple dies and other decorative dies......

I have had problems with. My Deere Loader Tractor intermittently losing lift on the 3pt hitch. I put pressure gauges on everything and discovered that the problem was in a bypass hose for the power beyond. On a hunch, I tried a different Quick connect style - popper instead of ball. Bingo - problem gone. But why?

I called and spoke to a tech Rep at Pioneer Hydraulics. He told me that the high flow rate of a poppet style female can occasionally over seat the male ball resulting in a no-flow Lockup condition.

Basically, the seal should float allowing flow around it. But too much flow can push the ball into a rear seat which locks up all flow.

I am now quite religious about not mismatching fittings and have pretty much replaced all my old style ball fittings to the newer poppet style fittings.

FYI - ball fittings have a ball at the end of the fitting. Poppet fittings have a Cone shaped end with a short pin on it.

Info only. May or may not apply to your situation.

 

[Dan Dubeau]

Interesting problem. Makes sense when you think about it though. A lot of variables in hydraulic systems.

My tractors hydraulic system and it's operation would make you laugh. Old massey with a diverter valve under the seat for the loader to operate via the 3pth arm. It's worn enough that there is slight blowby, so when you're in loader mode the 3 pth will gradually creep up, and the same if you're in 3pt mode. Makes for a fun time when you're bush hogging in and around the trees.....Need to be an octopus to drive it .

The press was an easy fix, just delete the quick connect, and plumb directly. Now I just need to get back to the projects I need it for....