Tips/Techniques When does an electrician need to get a permit?

[slow-poke]

Question relates to Ontario.

I would assume that if an electrician does some sort of trivial job, say R&R a kitchen light or replace a worn out duplex receptacle that they can simply do that without a permit?

At what point is an electrician required to get a permit?

We recently did a bathroom renovation and the electrical work was pretty trivial; move a couple of lights, R&R the fan and one new receptacle, took the electrician perhaps two hours. When all was done we were told by the bathroom contractor that the electrical inspection was signed off by ESA. ESA did not visit however from my understanding they often don't anymore.

I was surprised that the electrician actually needed a permit for work like this.

Any electrician's out there?

 

[Aliva]

In my area in northern Ontario the electrical inspector. very rarely visits a site as long as the work is done by an certified electrical contractor, they all have ESA numbers. Concerning when a permit is required I don't know but would be interesting what the protocol is.

 

[Chicken lights]

I sort of understood it that electricians were vetted by ESA to do quality work- ESA then doesn't need to inspect every job and the electrician doesn't have time wasted waiting for inspectors

 

[djberta]

The rules we teach are that if its a new install or renovation then you must pull a permit. If its repair or replacement then you do not need one. It does break down to jurisdictions. Calgary has some different rules compared to Airdrie. The permitting authority will tell you if you need a permit or not when you apply. Also if you have questions contact your local inspector. I am pro inspection and have been since the beginning of my career. I worked with a great electrician as an apprentice who taught me a lot of great practices in the trade. One of those was to always error on the side of permitting. The only people I have seen in my career not getting permits or going out of their way to obscure inspections, had something to hide. Usually code breaking installations to save money and or cover up a mistake.

As to what we call curb inspections, in my opinion they should result in the loss of an inspectors certification. People and business's pay for the permit based on the cost of the project. Then to not have the inspector do their job is unacceptable. This was an issue here in Alberta years ago and they had to change some rules to stop it. It is not enough to have a certified electrician do the work. We are seeing more and more issues with bad installations. In the end the inspector does not work for the electrician, they work for home owner or business owner. They are their to make sure that installations conform to the electrical code and municipal laws. In my career more then once I have had to go in to a business and fix the prior electricians work. Because the work was so bad the inspector refused to finish the inspection and cancelled the permit. Leaving the business owner no choice but to fire that electrician and bring in a new one.

One individual in Edmonton was so bad that they pulled his masters, the inspections groups refused to permit him. Later they pull two other peoples masters who started getting permits for him. In 2020 Alberta changed the laws regarding permitting, masters and the trades act. Now an individual can lose their journeypersons certification over fraudulent acts. Before 2020 once you got your ticket it could not be removed.

 

[Elektrishun]

The rules we teach are that if its a new install or renovation then you must pull a permit. If its repair or replacement then you do not need one. It does break down to jurisdictions.

That has always been my understanding as well.

 

[Elektrishun]

Question relates to Ontario.

I would assume that if an electrician does some sort of trivial job, say R&R a kitchen light or replace a worn out duplex receptacle that they can simply do that without a permit?

At what point is an electrician required to get a permit?

We recently did a bathroom renovation and the electrical work was pretty trivial; move a couple of lights, R&R the fan and one new receptacle, took the electrician perhaps two hours. When all was done we were told by the bathroom contractor that the electrical inspection was signed off by ESA. ESA did not visit however from my understanding they often don't anymore.

I was surprised that the electrician actually needed a permit for work like this.

Any electrician's out there?

I would never do electrical work that required a permit without one.

Sounds like your electrician doesn't cut corners and cares about his license.

 

[Elektrishun]

Couple additional comments:

- years ago I wired my garage before becoming an electrician. Pulled a home owners permit and called the inspector when required. During one visit he stated that for all the permits pulled they had enough inspectors to get to about 50%. They prioritized homeowners, new contractors, or contractors with a bad reputation.

- during COVID, in my jurisdiction, inspectors allowed photographs of the work to be submitted before closing up.

 

[philipFROM-PNW]

Under BEST ADVICE of the Year AWARD IS:

"One of those was to always error on the side of permitting"

As a (non-electrical) Contractor, I had clients ask me to "Sneek this IN" to a job, if they would NOT accept my reasoning to NOT accept, I said "I will NOT do the Job", I only lost 1, 2, jobs • • • • BUT I never LOST my Contractor's License, either .....

philip, from Oregon, USA
Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed.

 

[Lucky7]

A related question- do different jurisdictions handle inspection of phase converters to any Canadian standard? (Not an electrician myself, but the fully qualified industrial electricians I know socially that I’ve tried to pic the brains of all admit they have no experience with phase converters, just utility provided 3ph.)

 

[Lucky7]

I ask the above question, because the phase converters I’ve seen are UL not CSA. I have read (and probably didn’t fully understand) a 2010’s version of NEC related to this, but the CEC section on converters I can’t find online. Is there enough info in the CEC for the inspector or is there some other knowledge source?

Presumably inspectors do run across phase converters in their work? And not just on farm irrigation systems.

 

[justin1]

A related question- do different jurisdictions handle inspection of phase converters to any Canadian standard? (Not an electrician myself, but the fully qualified industrial electricians I know socially that I’ve tried to pic the brains of all admit they have no experience with phase converters, just utility provided 3ph.)

I think if it's for personal use and just plugs into the wall you can get away with out any inspections sorta (grey zone area still) because anything that is used in Canada technically needs to be certified to CSA or have a transferable rating accepted by CSA

If it is a homemade unit your very unlikely to get it signed off anyways. I had a electrical inspector try to tell me I wasn't aloud use my central wood boiler because it wasn't CSA'd but ended up having to dig threw all the paperwork for boiler and found what it was certified then show that too inspector for him to give me his blessing to hook up the boiler too my panel.

I got some safety auth stickers on some of my equipment that was used commercially. you pretty much can't get away with anything if your using it commercially. CSA/OHS and insurance tells you what you need. Specially for electrical and guards for equipment and making sure your air compressor tanks are not expired and inspected.

Once you become a company then you start too need inspections and stickers for all equipment. Few pieces of equipment that I have still have those stickers but they probably don't mean anything without paper work.


Newest copy of the CEC in pdf forum

Adobe Acrobat

acrobat.adobe.com

You maybe able to find something about what's required here but you better off to call your local safety authority (who ever issues electrical permits) and ask what they think

Also I'm not an electrician I'm a welder I just have dealt with homeowners electrical permits and more or less what's posted above is what I understand about it. which may or may it be correct but I would assume if it runs on electricity it needs some kinda of cert. But at end of the day it really comes down to what you as the owner of said equipment is will to tolerate for personal liability as you can buy all kinds of sketchy stuff off Amazon that's not certified and just down right hazardous but it's still your fault if you get hurt using it not Amazon's lol

 

[Elektrishun]

I ask the above question, because the phase converters I’ve seen are UL not CSA. I have read (and probably didn’t fully understand) a 2010’s version of NEC related to this, but the CEC section on converters I can’t find online. Is there enough info in the CEC for the inspector or is there some other knowledge source?

Presumably inspectors do run across phase converters in their work? And not just on farm irrigation systems.

Generally speaking, if you purchase an appliance and it has a cord end where you can plug it in to an existing outlet nobody will care. Preferably it is in good condition and has electrical approvals.

If you purchase an appliance that needs to be hardwired where conductors need to be ran and other hardware installed then you need a permit. The appliance should come with installation instructions for the electrical and local codes should be followed.

If you engineer it yourself you still need to follow the electrical code.

 

[Lucky7]

Thanks for try, justin1, unfortunately my Adobe reader (latest version) cannot open that CEC file.

 

[Mike R]

I ask the above question, because the phase converters I’ve seen are UL not CSA.

Doesn't necessarily need to be CSA approved, UL is also acceptable - see here:
https://esasafe.com/electrical-products/recognized-certification-marks/

 

[Elektrishun]

I ask the above question, because the phase converters I’ve seen are UL not CSA. I have read (and probably didn’t fully understand) a 2010’s version of NEC related to this, but the CEC section on converters I can’t find online. Is there enough info in the CEC for the inspector or is there some other knowledge source?

Presumably inspectors do run across phase converters in their work? And not just on farm irrigation systems.

I did a little more research and the CEC does not have a specific set of code rules for rotary phase converters. Nonetheless, the code rules for motors, etc. could be applied after viewing the manufacturer's electrical requirements. Installation would require getting all the specifics and then you could hire an electrician to do the installation. The installation would require a permit.

As I mentioned before, the manufacturer is the place to start for information. Once they understand what types of loads will be used with the rotary phase converter then they can determine the appropriate size. Looking at an example of an American company's installation instructions there is a lot of information, such as:

American Rotary - Rotary Phase Converter Installation Manual

 

[trevj]

philip, from Oregon, USA
Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed.

I can demonstrate or tell of LOTS of examples that this is a wrong assumption to take! LOL!

LOTS of people out there, that do their very best to remain ignorant, and since you can't hit them with sticks either, you gotta find other ways to head them off to somewhere that they won't either bother you (lowest level scenario), or hurt someone by making decisions based upon willful ignorance...

 

[Tom O]

That’s easy!!! It’s when he doesn’t want to be in the paper trail or responsible

 

[buckbrush]

There is a separate code book for manufacturing electrical devices and machines.