I have never heard of anyone using a digital scale to check a balance beam scale. The other way around - yes.
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Tool Weighing and accuracy
- Thread starter Former Member
- Start date
Tool
Former Member
Guest
I have one of the few RCBS Ammomasters with a 5 station automatic press. I bought it because it can do anything from the smallest caliber to (in single stage, yes it was designed for that) 50BMG. Most were build as single stage presses.
DPittman
Ultra Member
I'm talking scales.
My reloader guy uses a digital scale for each and every load/charge after using the balance beam scale. I believe he feels redundancy and repeatability are confidence building in the end goal of repeatable accuracy.
I do just the opposite. I use a powder thrower with a digital scale and then I fine tune on a balance beam with a powder trickler. The beam is never off and is 100% repeatable. The thrower can be off by as much as a third of a grain.
Once upon a time I might have spent that. But when an inexpensive balance beam scale will get you within 0.03 grains, that price is out of sight.
My current procedure is to use a powder dispenser to get me a half grain below, then dump to a balance beam pan, then manually trickle to the target weight. For those times when the powder dispenser throws a heavy charge, I just dump and try again.
Former Member
Guest
How is this for accuracy, years ago my dad used a simple lee powder scoop to precision load his 243, basically he kept less than 0.05 grain accuracy (verified with calibrated lab equipment, because he had full access to it), biggest problem was powder grain size consistency, not measuring consistency.
It simply comes down to one thing (even with lab grade calibrated equipment), PROCEDURE. Same and consistent each time.
It simply comes down to one thing (even with lab grade calibrated equipment), PROCEDURE. Same and consistent each time.
Sounds like your dad and I had a lot in common. I started with scoops and a Lee loader too. In fact, I still used the scoops instead of a dispenser and that got me closer than the dispenser does now. But I am lazy so I like the dispenser.
The consistent process you describe applies to the whole spectrum of that activity.... from reloading through to final impact. And so much more.
Was your dad grumpy too?
Former Member
Guest
No but I am
GummyMonster
Ken
Morning all,
I wonder if an accurate voltage stabilizer would help to keep a digital powder scale (or any electronic scale) more consistent.
Many years ago I tried reloading when I was away working to pass any extra time. It ended up being too frustrating. I couldn't use a digital scale as the camps used generator power, and I found that even someone opening the camp trailer door would change the readings. Due to the change in air pressure I assume. And I had to recheck the balance beam whenever someone would slam a door, mostly for my peace of mind.
I just did a quick search on power stabilization, and it looks like there are some that work well at keeping the power close to perfectly stable.
Glad to see that firearms related topics are welcomed on here now.
To the OP, I think paying more to ensure repeatable accuracy and ease of getting the tool calibrated would be well worth it in the long run.
I have a Wheeler Fat wrench that I'm happy with for mounting scopes and torquing action screws. I was given a ratchet style inch/pound from my father's tools, and while I need to calibrate it I've found it easy to get the dial to exactly the same value each time as you have lots of mechanical advantage I believe is the proper term.
I can't say I'd trust a digital one that any average person could afford for really precise work.
I wonder if an accurate voltage stabilizer would help to keep a digital powder scale (or any electronic scale) more consistent.
Many years ago I tried reloading when I was away working to pass any extra time. It ended up being too frustrating. I couldn't use a digital scale as the camps used generator power, and I found that even someone opening the camp trailer door would change the readings. Due to the change in air pressure I assume. And I had to recheck the balance beam whenever someone would slam a door, mostly for my peace of mind.
I just did a quick search on power stabilization, and it looks like there are some that work well at keeping the power close to perfectly stable.
Glad to see that firearms related topics are welcomed on here now.
To the OP, I think paying more to ensure repeatable accuracy and ease of getting the tool calibrated would be well worth it in the long run.
I have a Wheeler Fat wrench that I'm happy with for mounting scopes and torquing action screws. I was given a ratchet style inch/pound from my father's tools, and while I need to calibrate it I've found it easy to get the dial to exactly the same value each time as you have lots of mechanical advantage I believe is the proper term.
I can't say I'd trust a digital one that any average person could afford for really precise work.
Most of the digital scales I have use an External Power Adapter that produces a DC voltage. It is a piece of cake to make an equivalent battery powered adapter if voltage stability is required. I've never considered that as the source of the problems I have seen. You are correct in thinking it might be and I feel a little stupid for not considering it.
That said, I doubt it is the source of the problems I have seen. Instead, I would attribute hysteresis in the strain gauges and scale alignment surfaces as well as poor choices in the averaging/locking/acquisition analog to digital conversion system used to convert the analog measurement to a digital one.
I like the analog scale because my eye and mind can do the signal stabilization process better than the electronics seem to be able to.
historicalarms
Ultra Member
Hey man your stepping o my toes pretty hard with that comment LOL
Many time in my work era, working 16-18 hr days for 3 or 4 weeks in a row and making it home friday evening and wanting to make a shoot the next day. Between the wife & I, a match required min. 600 rounds to be loaded....I loved the machine I had that will load 8-1000 rnds an hr......and I have loaded hole-in-hole ammo for a .223 with that same machine ( I dont use the Dillon powder measure for that operation, I weigh every charge individually).
My experience with digital powder droppers differs from the others here. I have used digital droppers for 15 yrs or more and have 3 manual scales to cross reference to whenever i feel the need. I used a Lyman dropper for the first 14 yrs. The scale never caused me any greif but it would throw heavy charges (0.3 gr) prob 10% of the time but the scale always showed the "over" accurately ....until it started to float one loading session.
Not wanting to go without a dropper I and a buddy went together on a new Frankford Arsenal dropper. I have been using it for more than a year without one overage & have checked the scale against all my manuals and havent seen more than 0.05 gr difference.
Just a PS after the new dropper arrived I re-booted the old lyman scale and it settled right out the way it did for the first 14 yrs LOL.
No fancy electrical hook-up used, just plug the low votage adapter into the wall.
Sorry about that! I know you are having fun. But seriously, I had no intention to step on your toes.
As I said right out of the chute, it all depends on your needs. I shot Benchrest. That's a different game than yours.
I do love my single stage press though. Not only that but I'd be willing to wager that's what you would recommend for a new reloader too. Gotta build good habits and understand the process right away!
Now mind you, I may be getting onto some new games that have vastly different needs. At least in small part because of you..... LOL!
I confess I am surprised with your powder scale experience. I have a Frankford Arsenal Scale that isn't any different than the others.
I use a Hornady dispenser, not a dropper. But I do have a dropper that I sometimes use for hunting loads.
I enjoy reloading very much. It's a very relaxing hobby that offers lots of rewards.
historicalarms
Ultra Member
Actually , for someone that will only ever need a single stage for a few rifle rounds then ya, that is what I would recommend...but for anybody that has even the remotest need for a rotary-semi progressive or full progressive I have no qualms recommending that that is what they buy if they so choose as the progressive aspects of these presses can be disabled to a "single stage" condition to learn on and as they learn the game, their already set to speed up.
My Dillon 650 requires 2 screws to be removed to change from single to full Progressive.
My Dillon 650 requires 2 screws to be removed to change from single to full Progressive.
I don't even own a progressive press so I think most of my thoughts should be tempered accordingly. It's also been quite a while since I parked my butt on a bench in competition. I can't see well enough anymore and I shake too much to be competitive.
Of course, I can't help but wonder how much things have changed in that world. It used to be that competitors did most of their loading at the range during a competition so they could be fine-tuned for the conditions of the day. The vast majority of bench rest competitors used arbour presses and Wilson style in-line dies. In many ways, this is about as slow and deliberate as it gets. But there is also little doubt in most competitors minds that it provided ultimate precision. If it didn't, they wouldn't do it. Benchrest competitors are about the most innovative and experimental as they get. They are always looking for that teeny tiny little edge. That said, my own experience is that winning was more about reading the wind, mirage, and having nerves of steel than it was about the very best load or the best rifle. Tony Boyer once said "The wind is my friend" for very good reasons. His incredible ability to read the wind was what separated him from almost everyone else.
So my question is simple. You know the differences as well as anyone and I trust your opinion. How do modern progressive presses stack up today in regards to ultimate precision. Have things changed enough to make them viable in benchrest competition? Or perhaps a better question might be were they always viable just overlooked? Appreciate your thoughts.
Former Member
Guest
I'll bite and yes off topic
There are many industries that use similar technologies that progressives use with extremely high tolerances and repeatability.
So can progressives can be as accurate as the most OCD individual bench loader has, the answer is yes.
BUT......the progressive loader must have OCD.....
GummyMonster
Ken
Sorry for being part pf the BIG swing off topic Janger.
My thoughts on the torque driver :
I think paying more to ensure repeatable accuracy and ease of getting the tool calibrated would be well worth it in the long run.
I have a Wheeler Fat wrench that I'm happy with for mounting scopes and torquing action screws. I was given a ratchet style inch/pound from my father's tools, and while I need to calibrate it I've found it easy to get the dial to exactly the same value each time as you have lots of mechanical advantage I believe is the proper term.
My thoughts on the torque driver :
I think paying more to ensure repeatable accuracy and ease of getting the tool calibrated would be well worth it in the long run.
I have a Wheeler Fat wrench that I'm happy with for mounting scopes and torquing action screws. I was given a ratchet style inch/pound from my father's tools, and while I need to calibrate it I've found it easy to get the dial to exactly the same value each time as you have lots of mechanical advantage I believe is the proper term.
