Visiting China

[jcdammeyer]

When I went looking for AC Servo motors I looked at EBAY. Yuck. No idea who I was dealing with. Looked at Aliexpress. Same issue with the fear of large dollar items going south. One time I got a pair of fake designer sunglasses that were actually supposed to be shoes ordered from Italy. That took over a month to get Mastercard to refund.
But for the AC servo's I went Alibaba, the parent company of Aliexpress, and ended up dealing directly with the factory that makes the servos. At one point when I was having problems they even sent me a cell phone video of their engineer pressing the buttons and setting the values I needed to set.
If we ever make it over to China for a holiday we've been invited to tour the factory. Even know which little village the guy lives in and commutes from to go to work.

 

[Susquatch]

If we ever make it over to China for a holiday we've been invited to tour the factory. Even know which little village the guy lives in and commutes from to go to work.

You don't get to go wherever you want when you go to China. The only way to visit him and see his place of work is if you get him to invite you officially through the Chinese Gov't. You will also be on a short leash and cannot go anyplace else. Your host will have to report your whereabouts on a regular basis and takes fully responsibility for your conduct.

You can go to the regular tourist traps without this but you take your own risks when you do so. If people see you elsewhere, they are required to report you and get a reward for doing so.

 

[Jswain]

You don't get to go wherever you want when you go to China. The only way to visit him and see his place of work is if you get him to invite you officially through the Chinese Gov't. You will also be on a short leash and cannot go anyplace else. Your host will have to report your whereabouts on a regular basis and takes fully responsibility for your conduct.

You can go to the regular tourist traps without this but you take your own risks when you do so. If people see you elsewhere, they are required to report you and get a reward for doing so.

Really? That's crazy, never been to or had the urge to go.

When you land they tell you where you can and can't go or what?

 

[Tom Kitta]

You don't get to go wherever you want when you go to China. The only way to visit him and see his place of work is if you get him to invite you officially through the Chinese Gov't. You will also be on a short leash and cannot go anyplace else. Your host will have to report your whereabouts on a regular basis and takes fully responsibility for your conduct.

You can go to the regular tourist traps without this but you take your own risks when you do so. If people see you elsewhere, they are required to report you and get a reward for doing so.

Ummm, that is not true at all. Once you get Chinese visa you just go to a counter anytime you are in the area, show passport, get it stamped, get picture taken and can go into China. Done it twice. It is very similar to entering US. Visa is for 10 years or validity of the passport. There is no "host" so there is no one to report on me. In major cities everything is in English - so it feels like a cleaner version of US.

There is more involved if you visit Tibet - but Xinyang is already OK - this is where US propaganda says lies about some kind of Uighur gendercide. Which when I was there was not present - even in that area there was no one to "watch me" and I was free to move around. Maybe you got China confused with North Korea?

If prices of mountains were not so high in China, with permit at 9500 USD alone, I would come over there once again and climb.

 

[Tom Kitta]

Really? That's crazy, never been to or had the urge to go.

When you land they tell you where you can and can't go or what?

When you land, you pick up your bags, go to immigration counter, show passport with valid visa, get it stamped. They take biometric info off you like pictures. They ask for purpose of your trip. Outside of Tibet and maybe few other areas that you need permissions to enter other than a visa - you are free to travel as you wish, alone as you wish. China is quite safe & not very expensive - so easy to travel and get around.

Forgot to add, when I say "China" I mean mainland China - for many places outside of mainland you do not need a visa - or you can get visa on arrival. Say places like Hong Kong or Hainan island. Also when I say China I mean PRC - not Taiwan which is ROC.

 

[Susquatch]

Ummm, that is not true at all. Once you get Chinese visa you just go to a counter anytime you are in the area, show passport, get it stamped, get picture taken and can go into China. Done it twice.

Well, I don't know what to say Tom. I've been there 3 times and all three were the same. I couldn't even get a visa without the Chinese government approved letter of invitation. The first time was 20 years ago, and the last time was about 7 years ago. None of them were tourist Visa's to designated tourist areas. That's why I said tourists were handled differently. I would assume mountain climbing would be classed as tourism. But visiting an individual or an industrial location isn't classed as tourism.

 

[Mcgyver]

Well, I don't know what to say Tom. I've been there 3 times and all three were the same. I couldn't even get a visa without the Chinese government approved letter of invitation. The first time was 20 years ago, and the last time was about 7 years ago. None of them were tourist Visa's to designated tourist areas. That's why I said tourists were handled differently. I would assume mountain climbing would be classed as tourism. But visiting an individual or an industrial location isn't classed as tourism.

Wonder if its changed? I was last there like 14 years ago for business and it was as you described, needed an invite letter etc. Once there we moved pretty freely, although who knows what was going on in the background.

 

[gerritv]

My experience is the same as Tom, apply for visa at their consulate in Canada. On arrival (in our case via cruise ship), walk off the ship and wander unescorted aimlessly around Shanghai or Tianjin or .... At the time I didn't have need for stepper motors or linear guides, else I would have visited a different part of Shanghai
Great experience overall. We had more hassles arriving in Alaska on the same cruise, gun boats in the harbour, in person passport checks and then more nonsense to get back on the ship.

gerrit

 

[Tom Kitta]

To get initial visa can be a hassle - I also needed a letter - about 6 years ago. But once you get a visa its relatively free, and stays that way for 10 years.

I do not see anything different from tourist visa vs. say business visa as far as following around goes - would all spies come as business people only?

The letter did specify what I would do in China - but you actually do not have to follow this - this is just legacy from communism - it is now being abandomed. Besides, why have this if on all other visits you do not say what will you do?

Also the visa is not for designed tourist area at all - you can, with few exceptions go anywhere without anyone asking you anything. I.e. visa is not restricted at all.

So, I can go to say industrial area and pick up some endmills - no issues. I can fly all over the country. I am quite sure I cannot take pictures of military bases and such - which is the same for majority of the planet.

I been to China 3 times.

Also you can talk to ordinary Chinese without any issues - heck young people in Kashgar wanted to practice English and asked about studying in Canada. In private you can even ask politically sensitive questions.

 

[Susquatch]

Boy, such major different experiences.

@Mcgyver - did you have a host (chaperone/babysitter) like I did, or did you go where you wanted alone.

Arriving by cruise ship in a big city is clearly tourism and if you wander around and buy a few things or take a tour bus, so much the better for their economy.

Arriving someplace and then jumping on a plane unescorted is a recipe for getting thrown in jail and becoming an international incident. I could never recommend it.

I had to take a short 4 hour course on what was ok and what wasn't, as well as Chinese eticate. My babysitter was very strict about not talking politics, religion, or military, or knocking China in any way. You couldn't even take pictures of the police military or government buildings.

My last babysitter had occasion to come to Canada about 5 years ago. He ranted and raved about our standard of living, our homes, and his freedom here. I took him to on a drive through Windsor and London including some poor areas and the country in between and we had hamburgers and hotdogs (that's what he wanted) at a few fast food places. We talked politics and religion. He loved his whole visit. We are friends but he told me that his email is monitored so I still have to follow the rules even by email to avoid getting him in trouble.

The rest of you are obviously free to do what you want. But based on my own experience, I can't recommend it.

 

[Tom Kitta]

Boy, such major different experiences.

@Mcgyver - did you have a host (chaperone/babysitter) like I did, or did you go where you wanted alone.

Arriving by cruise ship in a big city is clearly tourism and if you wander around and buy a few things or take a tour bus, so much the better for their economy.

Arriving someplace and then jumping on a plane unescorted is a recipe for getting thrown in jail and becoming an international incident. I could never recommend it.

I had to take a short 4 hour course on what was ok and what wasn't, as well as Chinese eticate. My babysitter was very strict about not talking politics, religion, or military, or knocking China in any way. You couldn't even take pictures of the police military or government buildings.

My last babysitter had occasion to come to Canada about 5 years ago. He ranted and raved about our standard of living, our homes, and his freedom here. I took him to on a drive through Windsor and London including some poor areas and the country in between and we had hamburgers and hotdogs (that's what he wanted) at a few fast food places. We talked politics and religion. He loved his whole visit. We are friends but he told me that his email is monitored so I still have to follow the rules even by email to avoid getting him in trouble.

The rest of you are obviously free to do what you want. But based on my own experience, I can't recommend it.

No chaperone at all - you can enter the city and go anywhere within it - I did. You can fly anywhere as well. Do you think they escort you on a plane? Who would pay for the ticket!
Heck I even slept in an airport in China (domestic). In the morning the cleaning ladies all lined up like an army unit and got their orders for the day - like cleaners scrum meeting but total army style.

Also no 4h course - are you sure this was not 50 years ago!?

You had a ... babysitter? Who paid for that! Its totally OK to talk - I talked about Chinese military - I even saw Chinese army parade - they do these often in Kashgar to show local Uighur who is the boss. Like suddenly they stop traffic - and just like that 5000 Chinese start to march. Of course you cannot just approach a Chinese person and ask them about their military - that would be a red flag. If they know you a bit better you can talk to them about say Xi. Then again, there is politically correct talk in every country - even in Canada - that is sensitive.

Standard of living in China heavily depends on where and whom. Uighurs in central Kashgar lived like a family per room - best compared to standard in New Delhi in India - super low. Compare that to modern buildings in Shanghai.

Food in China is great - restaurants are fairly cheap - they show you pictures of what you can get.

In Kashgar there is lots of security - every store - except the ones like less than 10m sq have metal detectors. 1000s of locals are employed as security guards. A business needs to get all of its employees trained in self defense - I think weekly - picture this, from my hotel I see 10 employees of local business line up with medieval weapons and practice defense. For like 30 min. Then during the day you see this few more times. Local Uighurs when they go on a war path go in large groups and stab all Han Chinese they see - so locals develop self defense - picture pipe with welded on nails or oversized baseball bats. Chinese joke that there are too many for them for the Uighurs to kill them all.
I even had Chinese calling SIM card in Kashgar but during my few weeks long stay rules on who can have one changed and they blocked it while I was on the climb.
Outside of Kashgar there were many checkpoints and every few km cameras. In Kashgar police station - tiny one - every 1km or 2km - lots of them. No one bothered me there. I was also part of the trip with a girl from France and no one bothered us or later on her.
Downtown Kashgar where Uighurs live lots of cameras. But no one bothered me walking these small streets - like special version of a city in Europe. I even was at the mosque in the city center that supposedly cannot hold prayers anymore - as per CNN - cannot be there just anytime, they have prayer schedule.
Police do not have firearms - only sticks - like in UK!
Overall I highly recommend China for a visit - all you have to do is go over the visa hurdle and you are free to travel as you wish.

Oh and most email in Canada is also monitored - Google reads every gmail for ad purposes. All content on social media can be accessed by US government. US government also processes all emails for set of keywords. This is why if you really want to be private you need to encrypt your email. US government has access to all data stored on US based systems - does not matter if that data is for Americans or not. Even encrypted data on some services is not safe as by law US has to be provided keys. Fun fact - a well know US general used email to communicate with his girlfriend - but he did not send the mail - as he knew it will be read - he simply left it in the draft folder & his girlfriend had access to the email account and could read messages left for her.

 

[jcdammeyer]

Bergerda https://en.bergerda.com/ is located in Hangzhou.

Judging by tripadvisor you can get there via day trip from Shanghai or stay there.

Hangzhou, China 2024: All You Need to Know Before You Go - Tripadvisor

Hangzhou Tourism: Tripadvisor has 137,337 reviews of Hangzhou Hotels, Attractions, and Restaurants making it your best Hangzhou travel resource.

www.tripadvisor.ca

Looks like a cool place to visit.

 

[Susquatch]

When you land they tell you where you can and can't go or what?

Tom Kitta's experience was totally different to mine. I had an approved travel agenda before I got there and a baby sitter. My baby sitter called in every day to confirm I had not gone AWOL. I could definitely not go wherever I wanted.

Back in 2021 when Spavor and Kovrig were imprisoned, there were 114 other Canadians you never heard about in prison there on religious, and political charges. 4 were on death row. That was after the last time I went and before now.

How many Chinese tourists are in prison in Canada?

My opinion and advice is simple. If you want to visit China for pleasure, only go to tourist destinations like Shanghai, Hong Kong, Shenzhen, the great Wall, and Hangzhou to mention just a few and stay away from the rest of mainland China unless you have an invitation. You can walk through New York's slums alone or leave the compounds in Jamaica or Cuba alone too. But I wouldn't.

 

[Doggggboy]

Tom Kitta's experience was totally different to mine. I had an approved travel agenda before I got there and a baby sitter. My baby sitter called in every day to confirm I had not gone AWOL. I could definitely not go wherever I wanted.

Back in 2021 when Spavor and Kovrig were imprisoned, there were 114 other Canadians you never heard about in prison there on religious, and political charges. 4 were on death row. That was after the last time I went and before now.

How many Chinese tourists are in prison in Canada?

My opinion and advice is simple. If you want to visit China for pleasure, only go to tourist destinations like Shanghai, Hong Kong, Shenzhen, the great Wall, and Hangzhou to mention just a few and stay away from the rest of mainland China unless you have an invitation. You can walk through New York's slums alone or leave the compounds in Jamaica or Cuba alone too. But I wouldn't.

Would your experiences in China have been different than Tom's or Gerrit's potentially due to your position in a competing automotive industry?

 

[JustaDB]

Tom Kitta's experience was totally different to mine.

Wouldn't have anything to do w/ the fact that you look like a criminal & Tom doesn't?

 

[Susquatch]

Would your experiences in China have been different than Tom's or Gerrit's potentially due to your position in a competing automotive industry?

That is possible for my first two trips. I was there to assist Chinese suppliers to my company. The third time, I was there to help them with their own vehicle manufacturing industry.

 

[mickeyf]

My experiences are closer to @Susquatch 's, although it was strictly a stop over going and coming from the Philippines, and some years back. We were taken exactly and only where we were allowed to go. But... there is a book by a punk rock musician about his travels in eastern Europe entitled "The Humorless Ladies of Border Control" and while that was on the other side of the world, those humorless, uniformed, grim faced, women in China brought that image to my mind.

There are a number of countries I simply would not set foot in these days. My only value as a political prisoner would be that I'm a Westerner, but that seems to be enough in some cases.

 

[Mcgyver]

Boy, such major different experiences.

@Mcgyver - did you have a host (chaperone/babysitter) like I did, or did you go where you wanted alone.

We had a host, a local business we had a partnership with, so they were with us most of the time. They had to write letters, we had to go the consulate for a visa etc. For a few days we did our thing on our own but had someone on our payroll driving and guiding - they were full time on our payroll as a local consultant so were well known to us. This was Shenzhen and some neighbouring cities, not at all touristy, and back before translations applications you'd be in big trouble with only English. I doubt our guy was calling it in, but maybe. We wouldn't have cared and I was not aware of any restrictions on us.

The rest of you are obviously free to do what you want. But based on my own experience, I can't recommend it.

It was filthy, chaotic, noisy etc. We were living at the top, foreign execs there for business meetings, but it was gritty and not comfortable. The business I was involved in at the time was electronics manufacturing and there was talk of expanding the plant. There was a plant available backing on a river that was asking a premium because you could dump your chemicals directly into it and the real estate agents thought we were idiots for saying we wouldn't do that. Another friend was showing me photos of a fabrication plant they have a partnership with, the painters all lived in the paint building, in one shot they were smilling to show off their red teeth - from all the red oxide primer.

Five way intersections of major roads with no lights. One morning there was a motorcycle crash and a fistfight going on the middle of it, with five directions of traffic weaving around it. Insanity of the roads.

Getting into a luxury hotel in Hong Kong afterwards was a like a return to civilization. All local execs lived in HK but would spend the week in Shenzhen (where of course they all had mistresses). Regular folk from Shenzhen were not allowed to go to HK.

You never saw the sun, just a more less bright haze because of the pollution.

You're not in Kansas anymore.

OTOH I just had a young engineer in my employ return after a month and he's pining to go back. Way less rules, better services and income taxes are a fraction of what they are here. Maybe growing up there the things that irked me just don't confront him.

 

[Susquatch]

We had a host, a local business we had a partnership with, so they were with us most of the time. They had to write letters, we had to go the consolate for a visa etc. For a few days we did our thing but had someone on our payroll driving and guiding. This was Shenzhen and some neighbouring cities, not at all touristy, and back before translations applications you'd be in big trouble with only English. I doubt our guy was calling it in, but maybe. We wouldn't have cared and I was not aware of any restrictions on us.

A wee bit different but not so much as to be a stark contrast to what I experienced on my most recent visit.

We flew into Hong Kong too, then spent the first and last night in Shenzhen. Our chaperones picked us up and took us everywhere. My own guy is the one who told me privately they were reporting in. The rest of my team were unaware of it until we talked about it and they asked.

The very first thing I noticed when we landed was no birds. They ate them.

I was asked if I wanted a girl for the time I was there. I declined. I found this quite strange because I saw no.young women anywhere else except Shenzhen.

We took the high speed train from Chenzhen to the "interior". That was something. Screens at the front of each car showed the speed. I don't remember how fast it was but I do remember that it was startling. Like taking a plane.

Filthy is an understatement. But then again, so is Paris......

I absolutely hated the food as well as the lack of culinary hygiene. I lived on rice and Coca-Cola the whole time. Some of the other guys liked it though. The mere sight of moving and uncooked food just turned me right off. At least the rice was boiled.

If I never go back, it will be too soon.

 

[Mcgyver]

PS .....

You can walk through New York's slums alone or leave the compounds in Jamaica or Cuba alone too. But I wouldn't.

In Cuba, what struck me is a pretty much all of Havana is a slum, at least visually from the decrepit and eroding housing stock. Isn't socialism great? Noboby owns their place so they all just decay. At first, at night, the dark, lightless streets of falling down buildings with swarms of people was intimidating ...... but learned they were safe (very strict policing and punishment makes crime minimal) and while everyone is kind of equally poor with their socialist economy, apparently they without the slum destitution. No expert, maybe there are the "villa miseria" out there someplace, but we travelled a fair bit with our customer is from there and it seemed consistent, bad but not horrific.

Been there for business a few times and its a been a lot of fun.....even the food is a lot better as they've started to allow privately owned restaurants. Here's some pics ...... we (or at least me) are conditioned to be creeped out in run down areas like this, but in Havana this is normal and safe