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Tips/Techniques Vertical up welds & Can a Toaster Oven be used as a 7018 Rod Oven?

Tips/Techniques
StevSmar

StevSmar

(Steven)
Premium Member
First, the unnecessarily verbose preamble to the problem that only an engineer could write…

So I have a tab and slot welding table:
Certiflat 24x48” table- Princess Auto
And the manufacturer recommends the back ribs be welded together first, one corner first and then the opposite corner second- so the heat from both welds tends to not twist the ribs.
And the best way to do that is to have the table upside down.
And because the ribs are not that deep, the welds will need to be done vertical up.
Which means I’ll have to learn how to do vertical welds (which I’m kinda excited about).
And I’ve read that the best rod for doing vertical up is 7018.
And the last time I tried to use 7018 the arc was really unstable, which I’m wondering if it’s because the rods weren’t dry. Because I purchased them from Princess Auto… (It might have been Home Despot)
But it could be that my transformer welder (taps at 40, 50, 75, 100A) doesn’t have enough oomph for 3/32 7108 (And until I have a serious welding project, I wasn’t wanting to purchase a nice stick/TIG welder)(That will be my retirement present to myself possibly).

Which FINALLY leads me to my questions:
- Would a toaster oven work for drying out 7018 rods? I’ve heard that they are lovely to weld with when they’re dry and hot.
- Is 7018 really the best rod for vertical up?
 
Watching with interest.

PS - Not needlessly verbose. But then again I'm maybe not the best judge of that....... But hey, at least you know you are not alone......
 
I’m very rusty as a stick welder. But the vertical stick ticket was done up, with 7018. 1/8” electrode, I want to say something like 125 amps? But it’s been, uh… 15ish years since I did my tickets.

I’d say you can manage with 3/32” rods at 100 amps, 7018, vertical up. And I don’t see why you couldn’t bake the rods in a toaster oven? As long as you have your CWB Supervisor check it first. :p
 
Toaster ovens work for me. There are specific rod ovens - but unless you are on the jobsite or field and have $ to burn, toasters work fine.
Fast freeze rod with a nice smooth arc - yes 7018 is my go to for vertical. Many other can or will do it too. What ever is on hand, and in this case 7018

Does your buzz box output DC or just AC - Your wacky arc could be causing the 7018 rod to run funny ( although they make AC 7018 rods too )

Down on the amperage 5 or 10 depending on your technique for vertical welds.

Gluck
 
Greywynd said:
If your transformer machine is AC only, 7018 will be a struggle.
Click to expand...
Yes, it’s AC only.

I already have 7018 rods, so I can try them. But I want to rule out moisture issue- I guess a toaster oven is not a big cost.

Thanks for recommending 7014, I’ll look into those as well.
 
I use a toaster oven set at 200- 300F for at least 1 hour, longer than hour is not going to harm the rods. When I was working we stored the rods in the oven if the package seal was broken. After 1 hour remove only enough rods that you can use in 1 hour. 7018 is a low hydrogen all position rod, so it has an affinity for moisture. You can store any rod in the oven it wont hurt the performance. For vertical welds 7018 works best when set at DC + electrode. As said before using AC is going to a struggle even for an experienced welder
 
a few things stacked against you here, and i can guarantee you that its not the moisture content of the rods

1. AC with DC rods, they do make 7018 AC, it contains arc stabilizers in the flux (potassium i think)...still hot garbage
2. Princess auto rods, not all welding rod is created equal, not by a long shot, esab or linde (solid strike) would be my recommendation for 7018
3. up hand, this is the most difficult position, dont try to learn this on the project, get some scrap...lots of scrap
4. 7018 up hand, the only thing more difficult is stainless up hand (for stick welding)
5. Set current taps....that will take some experience to be able to handle a rod up hand using not ideal amperage settings, 25 amp jumps with virt is going to be difficult

6010/11 is much easier up hand, it will be a rougher looking weld due to the fast freeze nature of the rod (7018 is not considered a fast freeze rod). 3/32 6010/6011 will be the easiest for you to control as a novice welder, 6011 is also an ac/dc rod and rather easy to find

you might consider down hand, it is much easier, and will be less likely to warp the table into an un-useable mess . Yes it has less penetration, and you will need to do a little bit of practice to learn how to overcome the slag but you are more likely to end up with a successful project given your equipment and skill level.

Aliva said:
You can store any rod in the oven it wont hurt the performance.
Click to expand...

This is not true, do not put anything other than a low-hy rod in a rod oven, for instance cellulose coted electrodes (eg. 6010/6011) require some moisture content in the flux, putting them in the oven will destroy the flux, it will quite literally fall off the electrode.
 
If you're planning on stick welding on that 3/16" top I wouldn't be too worried about keeping it absolutely perfect as it won't stay perfect for long.

Tack it together and weld it in a position you're comfortable with.

Or get enough practise in on scraps that you're comfortable welding uphill.
 
phaxtris said:
a few things stacked against you here, and i can guarantee you that its not the moisture content of the rods

1. AC with DC rods, they do make 7018 AC, it contains arc stabilizers in the flux (potassium i think)...still hot garbage
2. Princess auto rods, not all welding rod is created equal, not by a long shot, esab or linde (solid strike) would be my recommendation for 7018
3. up hand, this is the most difficult position, dont try to learn this on the project, get some scrap...lots of scrap
4. 7018 up hand, the only thing more difficult is stainless up hand (for stick welding)
5. Set current taps....that will take some experience to be able to handle a rod up hand using not ideal amperage settings, 25 amp jumps with virt is going to be difficult

6010/11 is much easier up hand, it will be a rougher looking weld due to the fast freeze nature of the rod (7018 is not considered a fast freeze rod). 3/32 6010/6011 will be the easiest for you to control as a novice welder, 6011 is also an ac/dc rod and rather easy to find

you might consider down hand, it is much easier, and will be less likely to warp the table into an un-useable mess . Yes it has less penetration, and you will need to do a little bit of practice to learn how to overcome the slag but you are more likely to end up with a successful project given your equipment and skill level.



This is not true, do not put anything other than a low-hy rod in a rod oven, for instance cellulose coted electrodes (eg. 6010/6011) require some moisture content in the flux, putting them in the oven will destroy the flux, it will quite literally fall off the electrode.
Click to expand...
We always put 6011/6010 rods in the oven if the pack was opened. It wasn't necessary but it wouldn't hurt. This was came right from the Praxair rep. We never saw any degradation. Maybe because they were used up in few days. The rods were used for high pressure pipe root pass and were later x rayed. All passed
 
I use 3/32 7018 for vertical as it is great with getting into the root and keyholing. 65 -75 amp DC
First thing I would do with your old buzzbox is get a couple of big diodes and mount them on a heat sink made from an aluminum cylinder head from a Briggs and Scrapiron engine. You will then have DC be stunned at the difference it makes.
 
Aliva said:
We always put 6011/6010 rods in the oven if the pack was opened. It wasn't necessary but it wouldn't hurt. This was came right from the Praxair rep. We never saw any degradation. Maybe because they were used up in few days. The rods were used for high pressure pipe root pass and were later x rayed. All passed
Click to expand...

Are you sure about that ? Are you a welder at said company ? It's easy to forget which you put in the oven if it was a long while ago, or your not the one doing it

6010 is not typically hermetically sealed (aside from the spam cans) it doesn't matter if it's been opened a day or a month, that package was never air tight from the factory

Taking advice from a praxair rep is akin to asking the guy at auto value how to fix your car, they have enough training to sell the product, that's it

Your rod oven is either not hot enough or it's not 6010 you have been putting in there, I have on multiple occasions taken out a box worth of ruined 6010 that someone put in the oven, the flux cracks and falls off

The "trick" with bad 6010 is absolutely the opposite to drying it out, normally it runs poorly (finger nailing, erratic arc, etc) because the moisture content is to low, and you want to re-hydrate it
 
Have heard of putting welding rods in a bucket of water, then they would work better. Likely 6010, kinda doubted it, but it did come from an old timer that had welded most his life, so could be he was telling it rite.
Don't think I have ever used 6010, ha, lots of others not used either!
 
phaxtris said:
Are you sure about that ? Are you a welder at said company ? It's easy to forget which you put in the oven if it was a long while ago, or your not the one doing it

6010 is not typically hermetically sealed (aside from the spam cans) it doesn't matter if it's been opened a day or a month, that package was never air tight from the factory

Taking advice from a praxair rep is akin to asking the guy at auto value how to fix your car, they have enough training to sell the product, that's it

Your rod oven is either not hot enough or it's not 6010 you have been putting in there, I have on multiple occasions taken out a box worth of ruined 6010 that someone put in the oven, the flux cracks and falls off

The "trick" with bad 6010 is absolutely the opposite to drying it out, normally it runs poorly (finger nailing, erratic arc, etc) because the moisture content is to low, and you want to re-hydrate it
Click to expand...
After further thought you are correct, and I'm wrong. 6010, 6011, 7010, 8010 is not recomended to be stored in a heated enviroment as per Hobart.
The Hobart document indicates that their rods should not be stored above 130F. In the same article they recomend no heated storeage. Nothing was metioned that the rods would deterioate after heated storage.
ESAB recomends ambient air storage.
As I stated we have put those rods in the oven, but perhaps the lenghth of time wasn't sufficeinet to cause the flux to crumble as you indicated.
Concerning being a welder I did have my all postion and pipe welding tickets from CWB. They have long since lapsed since I'm retired.

Thanks for the clarification.
 

Attachments

Bandit said:
Have heard of putting welding rods in a bucket of water, then they would work better. Likely 6010, kinda doubted it, but it did come from an old timer that had welded most his life, so could be he was telling it rite.
Don't think I have ever used 6010, ha, lots of others not used either!
Click to expand...

Yea that works, just don't leave them to long (over night) or the flux turns to mush

In the days of the the red 6010's (lincoln) it was fairly common to open a new box and do some of those old tricks as it was a pretty rough rod, but most of the brands have moved on to better flux recipe's, i haven't heard of guys doing those kind of things anymore. The rods are better and QC is a lot more stringent these days.

Aliva said:
After further thought you are correct, and I'm wrong. 6010, 6011, 7010, 8010 is not recomended to be stored in a heated enviroment as per Hobart.
The Hobart document indicates that their rods should not be stored above 130F. In the same article they recomend no heated storeage. Nothing was metioned that the rods would deterioate after heated storage.
ESAB recomends ambient air storage.
As I stated we have put those rods in the oven, but perhaps the lenghth of time wasn't sufficeinet to cause the flux to crumble as you indicated.
Concerning being a welder I did have my all postion and pipe welding tickets from CWB. They have long since lapsed since I'm retired.

Thanks for the clarification.
Click to expand...

Im not sure how long it takes. Not many guys are willing to fess up to that so its awful hard to pin down how long the rods were cooking. It was always assumed it was either the first year/haven't gone to school or (no offence) the CWB only guys. They saw a box out and not knowing and tossed it in the oven, who knows when.

Most shops for the last 20+ years dont run much rod in the shop, even for roots (a lot of mig roots), so who knows it could be a week or a month before someone goes in the oven. If you were doing plant work thats of course different, even today thats still all stick, pretty hard to haul anything around a plant, never mind a mig machine w/bottle.
 
Thanks @Susquatch @Stuart Samuel @Proxule @Greywynd @6.5 Fan @Aliva @Jswain @Ironman @phaxtris @Bandit for responding to my question.

The existing rods I have are 7018 AC.

Although putting diodes on my welder is an intriguing idea, I think I'd just buy a new welder rather than tinker with the one the one I've currently got. Ultimately I want an excuse for buying a TIG welder...

Good point @Jswain about the top probably not staying flat for very long, I tend to fuss too much and try to make everything "perfect" to my own detriment. I only have a limited number of heartbeats left and chasing perfection is currently a dead end game. (pun intended).

I think what I'm going to do is:|
- purchase some ESAB or Linde 7018 AC rods.
- practice vertical up with 6013, 7018 princess auto and 7018 ESAB/Linde.
- if it really does look like a welding rod oven makes a big difference, I'll purchase one from India. The main reason I'd do this is for size- a portable rod oven is going to take up less space than a toaster oven.
- practice until the welds look good from a distance and then weld that table up. What I really want to do is get my mill together which requires modifying my shop crane, not futzk-skiing around perfecting vertical welds and a welding table...

This is the cheap rod over I'm thinking of:
Arc Union rod oven- amazon
 
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I thought, not a welder here, that you can dry wet(tish) rods in a regular oven (if your significant other is ok with that), then keep them dry with a light bulb in a cabinet.....

And then, yes, only certain rods are moisture sensitive. I heard stories of old welders dipping 6013 in a pail of water before striking an arc. (Don't know why they were using 6013 but that is the story) :)

Like everything we, as hobbyists do...., one rule does not apply to everything we do.
 
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