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US Tariffs

Maker Mike said:
I bought some steel yesterday at a local place. They said the prices have gone up. I asked "So Canada makes the steel and the US puts import tariffs on it and the price goes up in Canada...really? Yep
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We may make a lot of steel and aluminum, but we don't always do the end working or refinement, a plant here may make the billet and turn it into sheet rolls, but then those rolls may go down south to be formed into hss or round tube.

Aluminum is the same story, the raw billets may be made here, but the plant that makes that specific alloy sheet or extrusion may be located on the other side of the border

Many of these companies are multinational, and this model makes/ made sense with open borders, plants are expensive, shipping is cheap
 
phaxtris said:
We may make a lot of steel and aluminum, but we don't always do the end working or refinement, a plant here may make the billet and turn it into sheet rolls, but then those rolls may go down south to be formed into hss or round tube.

Aluminum is the same story, the raw billets may be made here, but the plant that makes that specific alloy sheet or extrusion may be located on the other side of the border

Many of these companies are multinational, and this model makes/ made sense with open borders, plants are expensive, shipping is cheap
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I may have said this already but -

I'm being told free trade agreement hurt Canadian economy because USA plants shut down and went home, because shipping was cheaper

And yes, we truck a lot of raw steel and aluminum billets south
 
Chicken lights said:
I may have said this already but -

I'm being told free trade agreement hurt Canadian economy because USA plants shut down and went home, because shipping was cheaper

And yes, we truck a lot of raw steel and aluminum billets south
Click to expand...

Ahh it's not quite that simple, something like cheaper shipping may have been a factor, but I can guarantee it wasn't the only factor in shutting a plant down. People always like to simplify those sorts of business decisions, when they are not normally even close simple.

I have done shut down work in a few different plants that are or were on and off, there are a lot of factors, age of the plant, required maintenance, labor regulations, unions, market needs, plant operating costs (taxes, tax breaks, utilities etc etc), workforce quality, these multinationals will run in the red for quite a while before moving or shuttering a facility

Plants of any kind are expensive to build, operate (even when shuttered it could be 100k a month), maintain, even tearing a plant down can easily be in the millions, especially with an old plant that may require remediation. They don't just move operations to save 2% on shipping (even though that may be hundreds of thousands of dollars).

Even if you have a shuttered plant sitting, to open it back up could take months and in the millions of dollars to get it up to snuff and a workforce in place, I have been involved in this kind of work, it's huge, and expensive
 
phaxtris said:
Ahh it's not quite that simple, something like cheaper shipping may have been a factor, but I can guarantee it wasn't the only factor in shutting a plant down. People always like to simplify those sorts of business decisions, when they are not normally even close simple.

I have done shut down work in a few different plants that are or were on and off, there are a lot of factors, age of the plant, required maintenance, labor regulations, unions, market needs, plant operating costs (taxes, tax breaks, utilities etc etc), workforce quality, these multinationals will run in the red for quite a while before moving or shuttering a facility

Plants of any kind are expensive to build, operate (even when shuttered it could be 100k a month), maintain, even tearing a plant down can easily be in the millions, especially with an old plant that may require remediation. They don't just move operations to save 2% on shipping (even though that may be hundreds of thousands of dollars).

Even if you have a shuttered plant sitting, to open it back up could take months and in the millions of dollars to get it up to snuff and a workforce in place, I have been involved in this kind of work, it's huge, and expensive
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I didn't think it was quite that simple, but that's cool to hear your input on the premise. I'm skirting the politics rule here but his first term I said and will continue to say, you can't just snap your fingers and open a steel mill. Re-open or otherwise. Which echos your post

There was another good post on this but the fact remains you can't force people to invest in a country, move a factory there, hire a workforce, etc just because you want them to (politics neutral, country neutral, no politics rule in effect)
 
Chicken lights said:
I didn't think it was quite that simple, but that's cool to hear your input on the premise. I'm skirting the politics rule here but his first term I said and will continue to say, you can't just snap your fingers and open a steel mill. Re-open or otherwise. Which echos your post

There was another good post on this but the fact remains you can't force people to invest in a country, move a factory there, hire a workforce, etc just because you want them to (politics neutral, country neutral, no politics rule in effect)
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I agree with you, even the bit of insite we have is probably just a drop in the bucket of the whole picture, I'm sure there is even more to it than I know of. None the less, there are people out there who think you can just snap your fingers and move entire industries, it's wild to me.
 
Unless it’s a mine or a hydroelectric plant, the decision where to build a plant is mostly logistics. Our entire economy is built on the mildly-sketchy premise of stocks and shareholder value, so it’s driven by the desire for maximum profit. If XYZ Corp can increase profits 10% by making their widgets in Antarctica, that’s where the plant gets built. And the tools governments have to influence this are limited to tax incentives, onerous operating rules, or outright elimination of the industry.
 
whydontu said:
Unless it’s a mine or a hydroelectric plant, the decision where to build a plant is mostly logistics. Our entire economy is built on the mildly-sketchy premise of stocks and shareholder value, so it’s driven by the desire for maximum profit. If XYZ Corp can increase profits 10% by making their widgets in Antarctica, that’s where the plant gets built. And the tools governments have to influence this are limited to tax incentives, onerous operating rules, or outright elimination of the industry.
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Don't forget too there is this pesky little detail called "Fiduciary Responsibility". The board and CEO of a company are required by law to maximize profit for companies over their own interests.
So for example if increasing the pay for workers to a more reasonable living wage which reduces corporate dividends without appearing to improve product quality is not allowed even if the CEO or Board would like to do that.
So moving to a country where wages are low, environmental laws are lax and other things like electricity etc are subsidized is the right thing to do for a company that can realize a profit from those actions. In fact they are obligated to do this.
So if the USA had universal health care, a ceiling on executive salaries take home pay no more than 20x lowest paid worker and actively enforced environmental laws then they could justify a tariff on countries that did not have those things because it gives them an unfair advantage. That infrastructure would prevent a lot of companies from moving abroad because then shipping costs become the mitigating factor on costs.
Tariffs on countries that have raw materials which makes manufacturing in that country cheaper all other things being equal is unfair trade practices.
So shipping raw ore to the USA for them to make aluminum ingots or shipping raw logs is never a good idea and shouldn't result in tariffs.
The real question posed in this discussion is should we ship raw logs, raw crude, aluminum ingots, nickle ingots etc to the USA and China for processing that then results in the processed product sold back into this country?
 
Skirting dangerously close to getting this thread deleted, but there’s also another r-word aspect of this. We don’t blink an eye at shipping raw materials to Germany or Switzerland and buying back as BMWs or Rolexes, but constantly complain about sending the same raw materials across the Pacific to buy back as Wal-Mart toasters.
 
jcdammeyer said:
Don't forget too there is this pesky little detail called "Fiduciary Responsibility". The board and CEO of a company are required by law to maximize profit for companies over their own interests.
So for example if increasing the pay for workers to a more reasonable living wage which reduces corporate dividends without appearing to improve product quality is not allowed even if the CEO or Board would like to do that.
So moving to a country where wages are low, environmental laws are lax and other things like electricity etc are subsidized is the right thing to do for a company that can realize a profit from those actions. In fact they are obligated to do this.
So if the USA had universal health care, a ceiling on executive salaries take home pay no more than 20x lowest paid worker and actively enforced environmental laws then they could justify a tariff on countries that did not have those things because it gives them an unfair advantage. That infrastructure would prevent a lot of companies from moving abroad because then shipping costs become the mitigating factor on costs.
Tariffs on countries that have raw materials which makes manufacturing in that country cheaper all other things being equal is unfair trade practices.
So shipping raw ore to the USA for them to make aluminum ingots or shipping raw logs is never a good idea and shouldn't result in tariffs.
The real question posed in this discussion is should we ship raw logs, raw crude, aluminum ingots, nickle ingots etc to the USA and China for processing that then results in the processed product sold back into this country?
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Can you explain why Canada buys logs from the USA? Veneer?

Are the provinces not allowed to trade on certain things?
 
Saw this on the Bambu forum - the price of Bambu printers after US Tarriffs are applied. Doesn't seem to apply to filament though:

Bambu Forum
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Yikes. Its like a minefield out there. Now the trick becomes to verify are items running through a USA middleman distributor & incurring the dinger fees there (and passed onto customer). Or are there provisions to land them to Canada direct. I bet there is some scrambling going on right now in all kinds of industries. And seemingly the rules change every day. Kind of understandable why the economy is grinding down.
 
I've got a power bar from my aquarium controller that needs to be sent in for repair to the US. I'm very hesitant to do so right now because of the ever changing tariff situation. Theoretically, it should not incur any tariff charges but given the unknowns of what and how they are randomly applied I'd hate to send it off and end up on the hook for charges greater than its value. It would be nice to have it repaired so I'd have a backup unit in the event the new one fails, but it might just be better to sit on it until the situation clears up or just get another one for a spare.
 
My memory may be getting a bit dim, but last time this president was in office I was thinking of importing a lathe directly from China to avoid his Tariff’s. I believe I called the Canadian department responsible for duties and was advised that for a product that was shipped via the US I could apply to have the tariff’s refunded.

Hope that I’m not remembering this incorrectly.
 
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I haven't followed what's happening with the likes of PM / Quality Machine Tools (Matt) or Little Machine Shop or any supplier sourcing from problematic parts of Asia, but surely they (and well, prospective customers) must be taking a hit.
 
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