Tool Tooling up a milling machine
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little ol' e
Jus' a hobby guy
I don't think I've ever used any SAE endmills in 7/16, 9/16, 11/16, 13/16 over my years of machining that would require those range of collets.
Perhaps years ago when HSS was our only option. Although, we would just make up a 2flt on the decal, use a larger diameter blank, neck the shank back at that time if need be.
I disagree. I believe I do know what you are talking about and thought exactly the same thing.
In practice, I discovered that it didn't happen. My Weldon shanks run true as an arrow. I cannot measure any runout greater than the spindle itself and my spindle is amazing.
I later learned that part of the Weldon design deliberately offsets the arbour to perfectly balance a solid grub screw load.
Of course, one cannot count on that with lower quality universal arbours.
I have no idea what one would find with a random sample of arbours from the market.
The other thing is that the majority that I have seen are not really Weldon. They are just simple "Universal" Arbours. A true Weldon has double shank screws at right angles to each other. It is also possible to index them using nosed grub screws.
There is also a Fein arbour that uses pointed grub screws austensibly to improve indexing.
In practice, I have found that a good quality Weldon tool installed properly, indexes quite reliably in a good quality Weldon Shank. Furthermore, I've yet to see a real Fein tool in the wild.
Last, but not least, one needs to ask if true concentricity is really important in milling. Axial wobble is a bad thing, but I am not convinced that a thou or two of rolling wobble would really matter much at all.
That last point is one worth arguing about. It's just my opinion.
little ol' e
Jus' a hobby guy
I don't find this to be an issue in 3/8 diameter's and up.
It really depends on what style endmill you buy . If you have an aggressive vari-mill or carbide ruffing endmill and want to mill with it.
These style endmills will pull the block out from your vice if you forget to tighten it up enough on a Monday mornin.... Especially after a Wild Turkey dinner from the night before.
You'll want either a Weldon shank holder, milling chuck, shrink fit or hydraulic IMO.
Don't ask me how I know haha...
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Well.....sorry to burst your bubble,
www.cnccookbook.com
I have read other articles on this, and it is generally geared toward CNC and spindle speeds as the increase and which holders not to use, Weldon being among the first because of lack of balance.
There are a lot of old (and new) machinist out there that have not transitioned to modern tooling and machinery along with the benefits that they offer, additionally the changes that must be made to get these increases. Don't get caught n old school thinking, adapt, old school gives a good bases and understand where and why changes are required. I generally learn new things when I push the old beyond their limits and need to find a solution.
Getting the Best Performance from ER Collet Chucks
Short of much fancier and more expensive solutions, ER Collets are one of the best toolholding systems available. Consider this comparison from our
I have read other articles on this, and it is generally geared toward CNC and spindle speeds as the increase and which holders not to use, Weldon being among the first because of lack of balance.
There are a lot of old (and new) machinist out there that have not transitioned to modern tooling and machinery along with the benefits that they offer, additionally the changes that must be made to get these increases. Don't get caught n old school thinking, adapt, old school gives a good bases and understand where and why changes are required. I generally learn new things when I push the old beyond their limits and need to find a solution.
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little ol' e
Jus' a hobby guy
Well.....sorry to burst your bubble,
Getting the Best Performance from ER Collet Chucks
Short of much fancier and more expensive solutions, ER Collets are one of the best toolholding systems available. Consider this comparison from our
I have read other articles on this, and it is generally geared toward CNC and spindle speeds as the increase and which holders not to use, Weldon being among the first because of lack of balance.
Don't believe everything you read....
The End of the Weldon Holder Era
HAIMER, a member of Partners in THINC, offers the Safe-Lock system to provide pull out protection and many other advantages during high performance cutting.
Why Weldon Flats? - ANCA - CNC Machines
ANCA is a global tier 1 supplier of CNC tool and cutter grinders with over 35 years experience and a reputation for flexible software and accurate machines
How to Choose the Best Toolholding System for Your Shop
Many job shops hold onto traditional, inexpensive tooling systems. ER collets and Weldon flats are tried and true; they work and are proven. At the same time, newer, advanced machining technology, such as multi-axis machines, may perform better when newer, advanced (and more expensive)...
Again understanding why and why not to is important.
I have a Weldon (other than for Annular cutter) a10mm unit, run out is fine, but I found that when run at top speed on my mill 3700rpm it had vibration, HS was worse than Carbide. Switching to an ER Collet holder completely smooth no more chatter.
When I read, I generally check various sources as we all know internet information can be somewhat suspect at the best of times.
little ol' e
Jus' a hobby guy
If your noticing vibration at 3700RPM with a side lock holder, then I would indicate the holder, but it really sounds to me like you have other issues if that's the case...
On a side note,
I certainly wouldn't use anything but shrink fit on a multi axis mill for many, many reasons... No ER system could ever come close with spindle speeds up over 12K
Plus the fact, after using an ER collet several times in some cases, I would chuck it in the garbage at that point and drop in a new 1, if you know what I mean.
Some guys use ER due to the investment, but, soon realize in time that the investment pays for itself in tooling costs alone.
If I spend $380 on an endmill or ball nose, I want it in a shrink fit....
I think I understand the why and why nots and realized, I can't listen to some of the " Tool sales guys" and most of what I read on the inerweb..
IMHO, Hobby guys would be better with side lock holders when using endmills in any style 3/8" and up.
Either spend your money on the more expensive Weldon shank endmills, or, get yourself a 6" CBN wheel, keep it nice and square then grind decent flats. Pull the endmill down on the flat so it can only push up on you and not pull out....
At least until you know what your mill is capable of and have gained some machining experience with various endmill styles.
Then,
Once you start into milling... rather than machining, you'll know what tool and holder works best. Just keep your ER collet holders for finishing and drilling until that time...
Just stay away from the older TG 100 style collets!
On a side note,
I certainly wouldn't use anything but shrink fit on a multi axis mill for many, many reasons... No ER system could ever come close with spindle speeds up over 12K
Plus the fact, after using an ER collet several times in some cases, I would chuck it in the garbage at that point and drop in a new 1, if you know what I mean.
Some guys use ER due to the investment, but, soon realize in time that the investment pays for itself in tooling costs alone.
If I spend $380 on an endmill or ball nose, I want it in a shrink fit....
I think I understand the why and why nots and realized, I can't listen to some of the " Tool sales guys" and most of what I read on the inerweb..
IMHO, Hobby guys would be better with side lock holders when using endmills in any style 3/8" and up.
Either spend your money on the more expensive Weldon shank endmills, or, get yourself a 6" CBN wheel, keep it nice and square then grind decent flats. Pull the endmill down on the flat so it can only push up on you and not pull out....
At least until you know what your mill is capable of and have gained some machining experience with various endmill styles.
Then,
Once you start into milling... rather than machining, you'll know what tool and holder works best. Just keep your ER collet holders for finishing and drilling until that time...
Just stay away from the older TG 100 style collets!
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I love arguing with you on lots of points. But not this particular one. I love ER too. ER is my goto as well......
I don't do CNC and never will. No milling over 4000rpm either. So it's a waste of time debating those merits with me.
Two other things I don't think anyone has really caught.
1. With an ER arbour, tightening the nut is a simple convenient low torque two wrench process. No brakes or locks required.
2. The ER system uses a very long taper with contraction slots originating at alternate ends of the taper. This results in very even tightening of the six fingers across the whole length of the taper. This is a much tighter grip than most other kinds of holders.
I don't have to agree on anything else you say about the negatives of other systems though...
And you linking to all kinds of internet experts and self serving advertizing is just plain funny. Might as well be a YouTube video. You know how much I love YouTube!
But ya, I am a fan of the ER system. You don't need to convince me. There are probably even better systems around, but it's hard to beat the combination of low cost, inherent balance, and superior clamping that ER provides.
Just my opinion.
I love arguing with you on lots of points. But not this particular one. I love ER too. ER is my goto as well......
I don't do CNC and never will. No milling over 4000rpm either. So it's a waste of time debating those merits with me.
Two other things I don't think anyone has really caught.
1. With an ER arbour, tightening the nut is a simple convenient low torque two wrench process. No brakes or locks required.
2. The ER system uses a very long taper with contraction slots originating at alternate ends of the taper. This results in very even tightening of the six fingers across the whole length of the taper. This is a much tighter grip than most other kinds of holders.
I don't have to agree on anything else you say about the negatives of other systems though...
And you linking to all kinds of internet experts and self serving advertizing is just plain funny. Might as well be a YouTube video. You know how much I love YouTube!
But ya, I am a fan of the ER system. You don't need to convince me. There are probably even better systems around, but it's hard to beat the combination of low cost, inherent balance, and superior clamping that ER provides.
Just my opinion.
little ol' e
Jus' a hobby guy
ER collets have a significant place in machining as many here know, some guys here also know what the limitations are when using more aggressive endmills with them.
I appreciate that point of view. It was ever thus.
The world is not black and white. It is many shades of grey. And thank God it is.
Your low key non-confrontational comment provides me with an opportunity to express something that has been maturing in my mind for quite some time now.
One of the biggest differences between members that I am just beginning to understand is our machining focus.
For most that do it for a living or even those who used to do it for a living, efficiency, productivity, total cost, effectiveness, and return on investment are paramount. Every little advantage is worth chasing, the costs add up, and the results have to pay the bills.
For most pure hobbiests, it's the other way around. They would starve trying to make money. Nothing pays for itself. And the return on investment is meaningless. It's all about the fun of doing it. In many many ways, this fun costs money - just like most hobbies do.
Of course, there are other camps and levels too. In fact many are not sure where they fit on this continuum or perhaps even if they fit at all.
Anyway, I believe that I'm primarily in the latter camp of hobbiests. The day I have to cost justify what I do, I am done. My machining hobby arose out of the need to support my other hobbies and my farm. But machining has now taken on a life of its own in my world.
You absolutely right. Some guys on here know the limitations, many don't, some are learning, and some of us are just having a whale of a good time pushing the boundaries and having fun!
I've heard some say that farming is a great way to slowly lose all your money till you are broke. I think machining is just a bit faster...... LOL!
I'm doing fantastic! I'm already well on my way to dying happy and broke!
Stellrammer
Well-Known Member
In the past, I sold Haimer shrink tooling and balancing equipment, don’t get me started on grip, stability and balancing.The End of the Weldon Holder Era
HAIMER, a member of Partners in THINC, offers the Safe-Lock system to provide pull out protection and many other advantages during high performance cutting.okuma.com
Why Weldon Flats? - ANCA - CNC Machines
ANCA is a global tier 1 supplier of CNC tool and cutter grinders with over 35 years experience and a reputation for flexible software and accurate machinesmachines.anca.com
How to Choose the Best Toolholding System for Your Shop
Many job shops hold onto traditional, inexpensive tooling systems. ER collets and Weldon flats are tried and true; they work and are proven. At the same time, newer, advanced machining technology, such as multi-axis machines, may perform better when newer, advanced (and more expensive)...www.sme.org
Again understanding why and why not to is important.
I have a Weldon (other than for Annular cutter) a10mm unit, run out is fine, but I found that when run at top speed on my mill 3700rpm it had vibration, HS was worse than Carbide. Switching to an ER Collet holder completely smooth no more chatter.
When I read, I generally check various sources as we all know internet information can be somewhat suspect at the best of times.
Dabbler
(John)
Firstly, let me say that if you get any runout on an end mill at all, it is never a problem for a skilled mill hand. It might bother a novice, however.
@Degen I think your experience with that particular holder is just that. Get another holder, preferable a real Weldon or a Brown and Sharpe new-old-stock Weldon holder.
In nearly 45 years of using Weldon holders part-time in 3 shops, I have never had any run out that was detectably more than the spindle runout, and the milling has *always* been smoother than using R8 or ER. I don't use them often because they are a pain, unless you have a whole rack of them with end mills already clampled into them, like you do for a CNC machine. So I don't like end mill changes with Weldon, but that is just me. So I keep to the one size and I love using that holder.
Actually I'd like to hear your experiences. I'll never own shrink fit tooling, hell the heating machines are $5k-70k!!,
But I'd like to learn about the process from machinests vs manufacturers.
Stellrammer
Well-Known Member
There is place for the technology when certain objectives need to be met. Shrink tooling is ubiquitous now and requires in some cases merely a hand held heat gun. I’ve had 1/2 carbide endmills pull out of a shrink holder as well. It is great for high speed finishing where runout matters, contouring and light roughing with small diameters in high speed spindles.
Hydraulic chucks also are matching in accuracy but provide a bit more gripping power needed with larger diameter tools and roughing cutters.
Examples are Mould and Die shops, high speed finishing on a $1.5M mill the size of a garage working on a Mould the size of a car with 6mm ball nose endmills, eliminating the former hand finishing required a few decades ago.
Tool life matters, in these cases the holders and the tool are often balanced to optimize finish accuracy and extend tool life.
Speed , accuracy, reliability are protocols requiring such tooling, some other benefits are decreasing wear and stress on high speed spindles, especially those with ceramic bearings.
It’s dependent on the need and the results you are achieving. You might need to make cross holes in Ti-555 titanium using long carbide endmills to exacting tolerances to avoid honing. You may need to rough and finish the part on the same 5axis machine, because you now have 11 hours instead of 22, and zero tolerance for scrap. Every process and every tool has to be scrutinized and optimized.
The development of HSK and double contact spindles took the process further in stability, repeatability and accuracy. They are all incremental advantages that add up to substantial gains. These are not pushing the envelope, they are now common practice in industry where it is demanded.
Does every shop need to utilize the zenith of technology? Absolutely not.
If you are in highly competitive areas and your competition is adapting,you will have to consider it.
It’s never about one thing, it’s an holistic approach, the entire package. There is little to gain by using high balanced shrink fit tooling in a 40 taper machine expecting high volume metal removal rates that demand a 50 taper spindle for example. Just having an expensive, technically evolved holder or tool in a spindle doesn’t guarantee the results you are expecting, nor even make a scintilla of difference.
War stories: I worked with a customer on a major machining project, a difficult exacting job that was being off loaded to many different shops. Many tried and could not make money and kept offloading it to someone else. It went back to the original company who decided they could tackle it with a modest investment. Together we dialed in the processing, avoiding problem areas through the rough and finish stages. It required the right tool for every different process, and the correct method of applying it. Some very expensive cutting tools, some balanced tool holders ,some conventional but all together getting it done. There was a reliable process that took the part down to 7 hours vs the current 25 hours plus remedial finishing afterwards plus initial roughing and prep work-from another division. It was predicated on using a certain machine tool with a 50 Taper, which the customer was purchasing 2 of. The company president made the last minute decision to change that to a 40 taper because.. reasons, who knows. He was told the he did not need a 50 taper and saved thousands of dollars and cut delivery time.
Short story, it did not work, prompting a lot of cutting tool changes , slowing the operation down, blaming the machine manufacturer, the tooling companies etc.
6 months later, another company calls up saying they need some advice on doing a job from Company X. By coincidence, they had the exact same machine with a 50 taper. One week later, they received the original programs from company Xs engineering dept, plugged in the original tooling, turned out the parts on time, no issues.
There is no one size fits all, there is also a lot of BS to wade through.
Despite all this technology you can still lay out dowel pins and pockets on a die plate within a thou on a 50 year old XLO with high speed endmills, drills , reamers boring heads and a test indicator in a R8 spindle.
little ol' e
Jus' a hobby guy
Your expertise in tooling is bang on... Although, I wouldn't settle with a hand held heat gun for shrink fitting lol, but I get it...
My 2 questions would be...
1) Do you know how many 1/2 endmills went through that holder prior to pulling out?
2) Do you know approximately how many times you can use a shrink fit holder before tossing it in the scrap bin?
Thanks!
Stellrammer
Well-Known Member
It was nearly new, just the wrong endmill doing an inappropriate roughing pass in difficult material, prehardened P20 , tenuous at best, put it in hydraulic Chuck and carried on, inappropriately but successfully.
Hundreds of times if using the proper induction machine correctly. Once if you overheat it because someone said you can use a torch, because they said a buddy does it all the time.
little ol' e
Jus' a hobby guy
Ok, I don't plan on using a torch lol.
I'm having good luck with the PC409-I41-C21 with A2-D2 hardened sections with good tool life.
Using the OSG exo-carb line-up.
However, they mentioned after 20 heat cycles or so, the holders should be replaced, "should meaning" I shouldn't go much beyond 20 unless I clean them up and check, although I will check quite often now. Which I can live with but...
So for the heck of it, I cycled a 3/6 long reach holder, using an exo-carb 3/16 ball, several times over the period of several days... I found after 18 cycles the holder was ready for the bin. I haven't tried this with the 1/2 " holders yet...
I see no possible way at this point to get hundreds of cycles out of a holder when I couldn't get to 20.
Perhaps I need to look into different holders?
Thanks.
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Stellrammer
Well-Known Member
Real world is different from the parameters used in the lab when testing the holders. That reason is why I say hundreds rather than the thousands as Haimer can claim in their testing.
If you are not getting hundreds there are some fundamental issues. What type of heat system are you using, is it being heat/cool cycled according to manufacturer’s recommendations. Failure is almost always associated with overheating due to inaccurate induction system or leaving it to heat for too long.
Induction is superior to other methods and should be the only method to be considered if the volume justifies it.
The material composition of the holder should be taken into consideration, I believe OSG sold stainless steel ones, that quickly failed if heated by air, as the temp was not controlled.
The Exocarb is an excellent tool, I can’t recall if they have a polished shank or an as ground shank.
*** edit, I just noted you have a Haimer induction system, something is amiss as real world experience is in fact hundreds even without using Haimer holders. I don’t know if Haimer has a knowledgeable rep in Canada, but I would be looking for answers, and not just blaming operator error( which is often the refuge of ignorance or disinterest with some sales type)
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I saw an article and one of the developments with climb cutting was bit pull out, it has to do with how the bit flexes, grips and slips (yes even shrink holders do slip). I believe one of the methods to prevent this is that some manufactures have added counter spirals ground into the bit shank to drive it in if and when it occurs.