Terrible QC - Toilet Edition

[SomeGuy]

Ugh, sooo, went and bought a new toilet yesterday. American Standard Cadet, nothing fancy, mid range price, but shouldn't be total garbage. Get it home, lots of marks in the glazing of the bowl, tank is good though...store is closing in a half hour so run back without packing up the first one to get a second one (so I can cherry pick the best parts of both kits). Opened 4 boxes while at the store trying to find good glazing and no issues but all the linings in the tank were separated and marks on all sorts of them...finally find one that's decent enough and bring it home last night.

Installed the second bowl with the first tank today, went generally fine...got the new flange in, got the water line in, got everything hooked up and filled and shockingly no leaks, think I'm in the clear...but then I flush it and it's not a good proper flush, water just kinda swirls but doesn't go down. I'm thinking shit, the drains in the slab are clogged or not vented properly or something (only so much I could see before finishing), so grabbed a big bucket of water and flushed the toilet and poured the bucket in at the same time, get a good full proper flush. Start checking the thing out, the friggin main line from the tank where it enters the bowl at the bottom is almost entirely cast shut. So after troubleshooting all that, spend the rest of the day draining, removing, cleaning, and packing up the toilets.

So now I've got two toilets that need to go back to the store and having my doubts about being able to get one of these that will actually not be finished like shit AND actually function. My other thing problem is, the rough in is more like 11" and not 12", I should have probably moved the drain in the floor but did some measurements off the toilets in the house (also AS Cadet's) and seemed like it would be ok, which it was. This just limits which toilets I can fit now without going down to a 10" rough in one (which I knew was an option in case the 12" didn't fit)...but all those 10" rough ins are more expensive for the same thing and often not stocked. Moving the damn rough in an inch would have been a bunch more time too though, too late now with the floor all tiled and heat in it and everything anyway on the basement slab (so can't do it from below).

What should have been a simple afternoon to buy and install a toilet is going to end up being at least 3 days of time wasted. What the hell happened to quality control? Not the first product I've bought for this basement, didn't cheap out on, and end up with shit that takes days (or in the case of the flooring over a month) to get sorted out. Things keep going sideways and this basement project which should have been done last year is still going

/rant

 

[whydontu]

I used to work for Crane. Our toilets were made in a piecework factory, with a union workforce, who knew the plant was going to close and they’d all be out of work. So no QA at all. Did you know an exploding toilet tank on the 22nd floor of a high rise can flood down five lower floors? Got that phone call quite a few times.

 

[slow-poke]

We just renovated two bathrooms. This toilet (single casting), so no possibility of leaks tank to bowl, is a good flusher. Gerber brand.

 

[Martin w]

I feel for you, that sucks.
Every time my wife mentions renovations, I lose my hearing. I'm sorry I didn't hear you. No speak a da English.

 

[skippyelwell]

Renovated the bathroom last summer and found the same situation as the OP, opened boxes and found the goose necks on the 2 pcs toilets were so rough it wasn't hard to see all the possible future problems.
The newer model 1 pc units are smooth all the way through, they are quieter and have a water saving feature for just pee.
Only drawback is the flushing mechanism is much more complicated than the older models so may be harder to find replacement parts in the future.
This unit is an American Standard also.

 

[BldrJ]

Ugh, sooo, went and bought a new toilet yesterday. American Standard Cadet, nothing fancy, mid range price, but shouldn't be total garbage. Get it home, lots of marks in the glazing of the bowl, tank is good though...store is closing in a half hour so run back without packing up the first one to get a second one (so I can cherry pick the best parts of both kits). Opened 4 boxes while at the store trying to find good glazing and no issues but all the linings in the tank were separated and marks on all sorts of them...finally find one that's decent enough and bring it home last night.

Installed the second bowl with the first tank today, went generally fine...got the new flange in, got the water line in, got everything hooked up and filled and shockingly no leaks, think I'm in the clear...but then I flush it and it's not a good proper flush, water just kinda swirls but doesn't go down. I'm thinking shit, the drains in the slab are clogged or not vented properly or something (only so much I could see before finishing), so grabbed a big bucket of water and flushed the toilet and poured the bucket in at the same time, get a good full proper flush. Start checking the thing out, the friggin main line from the tank where it enters the bowl at the bottom is almost entirely cast shut. So after troubleshooting all that, spend the rest of the day draining, removing, cleaning, and packing up the toilets.

View attachment 65655

So now I've got two toilets that need to go back to the store and having my doubts about being able to get one of these that will actually not be finished like shit AND actually function. My other thing problem is, the rough in is more like 11" and not 12", I should have probably moved the drain in the floor but did some measurements off the toilets in the house (also AS Cadet's) and seemed like it would be ok, which it was. This just limits which toilets I can fit now without going down to a 10" rough in one (which I knew was an option in case the 12" didn't fit)...but all those 10" rough ins are more expensive for the same thing and often not stocked. Moving the damn rough in an inch would have been a bunch more time too though, too late now with the floor all tiled and heat in it and everything anyway on the basement slab (so can't do it from below).

What should have been a simple afternoon to buy and install a toilet is going to end up being at least 3 days of time wasted. What the hell happened to quality control? Not the first product I've bought for this basement, didn't cheap out on, and end up with shit that takes days (or in the case of the flooring over a month) to get sorted out. Things keep going sideways and this basement project which should have been done last year is still going

/rant

I put a lot of those toilets in because, when the quality is good, it's hands down one of the most reliable big flushing non smearing toilets out there. We do often have to go through 3-4 before getting one that's properly glazed...

 

[Tecnico]

Well isn’t that timely. I just went through a round of “repair the toilet”, a Toto.

The good? All three work well and have done so for the last 15 years so no real complaints there.

The bad? The flapper lift lever mechanism. The arm from the pivot slides out and eventually falls to the bottom of the tank, I tolerate it because it doesn’t happen often.

The ugly? One of the pivot/arms broke off the other day so I had to do something. My S.O. vetoed leaving the string coming out of the lever hole so I had to do something better, lol!

Checked for OEM replacement parts, NLA. Thanks…. Recommended replacement looks like it came out of the 1800s….

Did the typical, normal homeowner thing and picked up a decent looking universal replacement at the hardware store but after I got it out of the security packaging it turns out to be a poorly made piece of junk designed by some beancounter (build to price point, yes in China). The handle doesn’t pivot, it wiggles & flops! Fail!

You know, my first instinct was to make a replacement arm because I have all the machine tools to do the job and I can but I told myself don’t be silly, spend a few bucks and buy the part instead of spending hours making a $10 part.

A few hours later the new arm assembly is in place. I figure by the time it was designed, manufactured and installed I’ve got the equivalent of close to $500 invested and the @#$&**# thing isn’t even gold plated!

I made drawings so when the next one fails the overhead will be a lot less…..

D

 

[Doggggboy]

I used to work for Crane. Our toilets were made in a piecework factory, with a union workforce, who knew the plant was going to close and they’d all be out of work. So no QA at all. Did you know an exploding toilet tank on the 22nd floor of a high rise can flood down five lower floors? Got that phone call quite a few times.

Was Crane the company that had the massive recall or class action lawsuit in the 80s? I remember lots of exploding tanks and resultant lawsuits.

 

[SomeGuy]

I put a lot of those toilets in because, when the quality is good, it's hands down one of the most reliable big flushing non smearing toilets out there. We do often have to go through 3-4 before getting one that's properly glazed...

That is just insanity...it can't be profitable to take that many returns? And I guess it's not even QC that's the unprofitable part, fix the darn manufacturing process upstream so you have less junk in the first place.

 

[BldrJ]

That is just insanity...it can't be profitable to take that many returns? And I guess it's not even QC that's the unprofitable part, fix the darn manufacturing process upstream so you have less junk in the first place.

I just open them up at HD and mostly check that the trap is glazed. We did have one that couldn't keep the siphon, but American Standard sent me a complete new one to my door almost next day. At $320 a toilet, they must have to make them for peanuts.
I've also had defective Duravit toilets from France, definitely made on a Friday, and Totos with unobtanium parts.

 

[Proxule]

Not to nitpick on you fellas, But having done 18 + toilets across several homes and for friends or family. I always finish off my work from the laminate or tiles or what ever substrate floor ( except carpet ) to the base of the toilet using 100% GE #1 silicone, Not the neutral cure shit. ( should smell like vinegar during application)
It finishes off beautifully and keeps bugs and dirt from accumulating under the chamfer of the base to the floor. No ugly dirt seam or discoloration. Looks professional.
I do this to the baseboards as well in wet locations, Always!

Tool the silicone wile wet and before the "skin" forms on it, I use a plastic tool or tools that come in a kit, but I also use my finger if that gap is a "custom" gap or varying gaps, YMMV of course.
If you run afoul during tooling and you find your self short on time and its skinned over, wipe a mineral spirits rag or cloth over top and start over.
Mineral spirits is your friend!

Gluck you all

 

[slow-poke]

Not to nitpick on you fellas, But having done 18 + toilets across several homes and for friends or family. I always finish off my work from the laminate or tiles or what ever substrate floor ( except carpet ) to the base of the toilet using 100% GE #1 silicone, Not the neutral cure shit. ( should smell like vinegar during application)
It finishes off beautifully and keeps bugs and dirt from accumulating under the chamfer of the base to the floor. No ugly dirt seam or discoloration. Looks professional.
I do this to the baseboards as well in wet locations, Always!

Tool the silicone wile wet and before the "skin" forms on it, I use a plastic tool or tools that come in a kit, but I also use my finger if that gap is a "custom" gap or varying gaps, YMMV of course.
If you run afoul during tooling and you find your self short on time and its skinned over, wipe a mineral spirits rag or cloth over top and start over.
Mineral spirits is your friend!

Gluck you all

Not nit picky at all, like this....

 

[Elektrishun]

Not to nitpick on you fellas, But having done 18 + toilets across several homes and for friends or family. I always finish off my work from the laminate or tiles or what ever substrate floor ( except carpet ) to the base of the toilet using 100% GE #1 silicone, Not the neutral cure shit. ( should smell like vinegar during application)

Just to clarify, you seal around the base of the toilet where it contacts the floor?

If true, when the wax seal fails, and it will, how do you find out there's a leak before extensive damage is done to the subfloor?

 

[Elektrishun]

Speaking of toilets...

As a child of the 70's my parents house had carpet in the bathroom. They also had the matching carpet set that went over the seat and around the base. Maybe it covered the top of the tank, too.

Such an unsanitary idea for a bathroom and yet we survived. Probably gave us super powers compared to kids today.

 

[Proxule]

Just to clarify, you seal around the base of the toilet where it contacts the floor?

Yes

If true, when the wax seal fails, and it will, how do you find out there's a leak before extensive damage is done to the subfloor?

That may be YOUR experience, but not mine. As in the fail did not show it self. The toilets I have done, 50% of the time when I replace toilets the subfloor is rotten and there was zero indication of failure. ( nothing visible outside )
I opt for the double thick heavy duty wax when I do new installs. But of course nothing will last forever.
If it lasts me 2 - 3decades, I am peachy.

I am fully prepared for subfloor repairs when I pull a toilet though. First couple were tricky and confusing, But repetition makes us master.

Gluck

 

[Proxule]

Not nit picky at all, like this....
View attachment 65686

Screaming professionalism, My hero!

 

[Elektrishun]

Yes

That may be YOUR experience, but not mine. As in the fail did not show it self. The toilets I have done, 50% of the time when I replace toilets the subfloor is rotten and there was zero indication of failure. ( nothing visible outside )
I opt for the double thick heavy duty wax when I do new installs. But of course nothing will last forever.
If it lasts me 2 - 3decades, I am peachy.

I am fully prepared for subfloor repairs when I pull a toilet though. First couple were tricky and confusing, But repetition makes us master.

Gluck

Fair enough and I am not doubting your claim.

Just out of curiosity - was the sub-floor particle board? I could understand a material like that soaking up water and being damaged before it becomes noticeable.

If it were plywood I would find it hard to understand how a subfloor could get that wet and damaged before at least an obvious smell would give indication of a problem.

Another factor would be the height of the flange - below the surface of the finished floor, equal to, or resting on top.

 

[Proxule]

Fair enough and I am not doubting your claim.

Yup, No hard feelings

Just out of curiosity - was the sub-floor particle board? I could understand a material like that soaking up water and being damaged before it becomes noticeable.

A mix, Depends on year of manf. Older homes have plywood, and newer homes have that particle board, 5/8 tongue and grove.
The plywood is better, as it stays together, but it bubbles up and stays warped. But does not disintegrate like the particle board, it becomes list dust. Useless lol

If it were plywood I would find it hard to understand how a subfloor could get that wet and damaged before at least an obvious smell would give indication of a problem.

Hard to say, Unless its a main floor with basement ( drop ceiling ) for investigation.

Another factor would be the height of the flange - below the surface of the finished floor, equal to, or resting on top.

Normally its equal or below the finished floor in my experience, considering the flange is attached to the subfloor and then layered on top would be your tiles or laminate or what ever.
I prefer it under or equal to, That way when I lay my extra thick or heavy duty wax ring, I get just the right about of smoosh. Often times I have to rock the toilet and stand and rock it back forth to really get that wax to spread out.
A gentle warming with a heat gun helps too!

Fun fact, the toilets that I seen have cracked or broken wax rings where the ones not used. They dried out and shrank or cracked. So toilets not used often should be flushed periodically.

And a un-caulked toilet often rocks and feels less stable. Could perhaps be linked to the cracked or damaged wax ring ? Just my observations

 

[DPittman]

Ugh, sooo, went and bought a new toilet yesterday. American Standard Cadet, nothing fancy, mid range price, but shouldn't be total garbage. Get it home, lots of marks in the glazing of the bowl, tank is good though...store is closing in a half hour so run back without packing up the first one to get a second one (so I can cherry pick the best parts of both kits). Opened 4 boxes while at the store trying to find good glazing and no issues but all the linings in the tank were separated and marks on all sorts of them...finally find one that's decent enough and bring it home last night.

Installed the second bowl with the first tank today, went generally fine...got the new flange in, got the water line in, got everything hooked up and filled and shockingly no leaks, think I'm in the clear...but then I flush it and it's not a good proper flush, water just kinda swirls but doesn't go down. I'm thinking shit, the drains in the slab are clogged or not vented properly or something (only so much I could see before finishing), so grabbed a big bucket of water and flushed the toilet and poured the bucket in at the same time, get a good full proper flush. Start checking the thing out, the friggin main line from the tank where it enters the bowl at the bottom is almost entirely cast shut. So after troubleshooting all that, spend the rest of the day draining, removing, cleaning, and packing up the toilets.

View attachment 65655

So now I've got two toilets that need to go back to the store and having my doubts about being able to get one of these that will actually not be finished like shit AND actually function. My other thing problem is, the rough in is more like 11" and not 12", I should have probably moved the drain in the floor but did some measurements off the toilets in the house (also AS Cadet's) and seemed like it would be ok, which it was. This just limits which toilets I can fit now without going down to a 10" rough in one (which I knew was an option in case the 12" didn't fit)...but all those 10" rough ins are more expensive for the same thing and often not stocked. Moving the damn rough in an inch would have been a bunch more time too though, too late now with the floor all tiled and heat in it and everything anyway on the basement slab (so can't do it from below).

What should have been a simple afternoon to buy and install a toilet is going to end up being at least 3 days of time wasted. What the hell happened to quality control? Not the first product I've bought for this basement, didn't cheap out on, and end up with shit that takes days (or in the case of the flooring over a month) to get sorted out. Things keep going sideways and this basement project which should have been done last year is still going

/rant

Well that certainly is crappy.

 

[Elektrishun]

@Proxule "extra thick or heavy duty wax ring"

When I worked as a maintenance supervisor I got to work shoulder-to-shoulder with a variety of plumbers (almost felt sorry for those guys as they easily had one of the nastiest jobs in the department). Over 2 million square feet of health region buildings that went from a few years old to as far back as about 1918. Got to see a lot of different plumbing issues and fixes. For the floor mounted toilets they all seemed to prefer the jumbo reinforced wax ring (and they ALL hated wall hung toilets).

As far as plumbing issues due to inactivity - at times there were departments in the hospital or other associated buildings that were closed/empty for a variety of reasons. A work request would be created to be generated bi-weekly for maintenance support staff to go around and briefly run all the taps, flush all the toilets, etc. This helped to avoid a variety of plumbing related issues.