So tell me which mill vise to buy??

[GummyMonster]

Evening everyone,
Susquatch and I were discussing vises a little. He cleared up a couple things.
He said that this question would start a §h*tstorm of opinions, bantering and possibly some good natured arguing .
But here goes :
A quick background. I've had "lessened abilities l (don't like being called disabled , sounds like something that's been made to do nothing. I'm hardly that) for 7.5 years, enough that I'm not really employable. I need to work for myself, set my hours, that kinda deal. My benefits, while definitely helpful, are sad and tiny. Barely enough to get by.
I actually used the last of my rrsp's to get setup for machinist work, and the bank account is getting pretty slim.
I bought most of my equipment off AliExpress, mostly due to the prices, to get me started learning. I'm working towards a small machine shop and making small runs of niche market upgraded parts to sell.
I'm fairly tooled up for now.
One thing I don't have is a mill vise.
This is my milling machine : https://www.aliexpress.com/i/4000260064562.html

I obviously need a vise for it, and I'm thinking of buying a fairly top shelf one right fronm the start. No having to tweak and polish a cheaper one that'll need replacement eventually anyway.
I like these 2, as their made for benchtop mills.
A Glacern : https://www.glacern.com/gsv_440
And a Kurt - https://www.kurtworkholding.com/product/kurt-tool-room-sine-vise/

Now is the Kurt 3 times better, since it's basically triple the cost of the Glacern.
I'm open to suggestions, and not set on these two only.

Sorry for the long post, but I'm trying to explain my situation.
Thanks in advance for any help,
Ken

 

[John Conroy]

The Homge vises that Precision Matthews sells get good reviews. You can order direct from their website.


https://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/4-inch-homge-ultra-high-precision-milling-vise-wswivel-base/

If you want a Kurt you might consider a DX4 instead of the much more expensive KTR35.

https://www.kurtworkholding.com/product/kurt-dx4-crossover-vise/

I have a DX6 and love it.

 

[DPittman]

Well I've never had a Kurt vise before but I've only heard good things about them as far as the quality goes. I doubt you will ever be sorry with owning one if you can swing the price. I've also never owned the super cheap Chinese made milling vises but have looked at some and was not impressed by anything but their low price.

I ended up buying a KBC "Griplock" branded vise for my main vise that I believe is the same as the Vertex vise but without the name and considerably cheaper and I think it is a good vice. I also have a "Groz" multi angle vice that appears to be well made and it looks quite a bit better than some similar other low end Chinese made vises. However I've read quite mixed opinions on the ""Groz" brand vises.

 

[RobinHood]

I have neither of the brands you list - so can not comment on them.

I do have a newer (‘90s?) GS 6” and an older (’60s) Japanese 6” milling vise. Because the GS is newer, it has less wear and thus performs better than the Japanese one. If I need huge clamping power, the Japanese vise wins. I also have two 4” Allmatic vises from the ‘70s - they have a mechanical force multiplication mechanism and three pre-set torques. They are very rigid and extremely repeatable. I also have a 3” GROZ grinding vise - seems to do the job well.

I do agree 100% with your statement that you should buy the best you can afford right off the bat. It will be money well spent and you will not regret it.

 

[GummyMonster]

Thanks guys,
I haven't heard of some of the brands that you mentioned, so I have more to look at.
Another thing for my decision is that this vice has to be small, most likely a 4". If things go well, I'm planning to invest in full size Precision Mathews machines, so the 4" vise will see less use. Although it can be used to hold work pieces within bigger vises at odd angles ( saw that on Kurts website).
Thanks again for the advice,
Ken

 

[John Conroy]

Looks like the KBC Griplock is made by Homge like the Precision Matthews high end vise.

https://www.kbctools.ca/itemdetail/8-251-004

 

[Tom Kitta]

KBC griplock looks like cheap Chinese vise, same as the "precision tool".

go with brand name - it does not need to be a Kurt. Here you get what you pay for. Go cheap and you have junk.

Through be aware that if you want Kurt quality it will be difficult to get it much cheaper. Like you can go with Polish vise but do not expect it to be like half the price, just say 30% at most cheaper.

I am unsure of the table size - but if 6" fits - use that. The 4" is not much cheaper but ... well quite smaller. 8" is overkill and a bit rare to find - also very hard to handle. I think most pp just go with two 6" for larger machine. Or similar setup.

Remember this is something that is even more important then machine you buy - you can sell machine and upgrade but vise will stay with you. Unless you buy junk and want to get rid of it.

Brand names are things like Kurt, GS, Toolmex, orange, Glacern, Parlec, Girardi etc. Generally close to kurt in price. Some may not be as good as Kurt.

See https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...ndex2.html?s=9ce71e382a8f80a202cbacf12135b49e

 

[PeterT]

The best advise I can give you is sit down with your machine with a measuring tape & contemplate what you anticipate milling. The vise choices are only meaningful to the available working distance of your mill. The vise grows from the table top so you might lose 4-6" on some of those that are more at home on a Bridgeport, especially with the extra thickness of angle set sub-casting. Then your part goes on top of the vise ways + parallels. Similarly you will likely want to do things on a rotary table. And you may have to mount a chuck or collet plate on top of the RT turntable to physically hold the part.

Now tooling enters the picture from the quill downward. So install your drill chuck, end mill holder, collet holder.... and typical length/range of cutting tools you use or anticipate using & measure distance. If you are contemplating other tooling in the future most sizes are referenced in catalogs if not already in your possession. The remaining distance, what's left in the middle between the floor & ceiling is maximum thickness your part can be with your mill head fully extended. So if everything works out & you are doing smallish flattish parts you are home free. If not then you have to make compromises.

One option that works for small machines is what are generically known as grinder vises 3-4" jaw range. They are inexpensive by comparison but generally very good accuracy. Go to Stefan Gotteswinters youtube channel & look at his videos of 2+ years ago when he was using a vise like that on his Optimum? (an RF-45 type mill which I believe is bigger yet than yours). He did a lot of quality work on that. I have a couple which I use for special setups. The only iffy thing can be the detent mechanism. Brand specific, some are OK, but pretty easy to modify improve as I did.

 

[Tom Kitta]

Some of these table top machines have huge Z range. I was shocked of the Z range of the RF machines. I mean you have more Z range then many BP clones. Also table shape especially Y can be similar to BP clone - on mine its only 1/2" less then BP2 clone - so a 6" was a very easy choice.

 

[GummyMonster]

Excellent advice.
I actually had that same thought earlier, that I need to sit in front of the mill and measure away. It's a smaller mill, so I need to optimize space.
I've been looking at the Kurt® CrossOver® Reverse Vise in either 4 or 6". They have a large opening lenght for their size, so I'm sure it would work well on a larger machine once I get there.
And I'm sure I'll still be using the mill I have for smaller pieces.
My wife wants to be involved, and I know she'd be more comfortable working with the smaller machines.
Ken

 

[GummyMonster]

I happened across these vises . - https://littlemachineshop.com/info/vise_compare.php
They are small, but with the prices, I could buy a few different ones.
Anyone have experience with these? How is the quality, mainly the flatness and parallelism ( Kurt uses these terms a lot).
Basically, are they acceptably accurate for basic work pieces? I'm looking to make oversized bolt knobs, some scope ring upgrades, and other small items to sell for starters. Maybe a Kurt quality vise is way overkill to start off.
Ken
Ken

 

[trlvn]

Can I come at this from a different direction? What is the highest-precision part you see yourself making? I think we sometimes get caught up chasing the ultimate in precision when it is, frankly, overkill. Unless you envision tolerances of better than 2 thous, the vise probably won't be the limiting factor. I note that you've ordered a smaller benchtop mill:

These are not the most rigid machines in the world and may need a fair amount of fettling* to produce consistent and reliable results. Quite lightweight at 65 kg. (Another picture shows the table to be 500 X 140mm or 20 X 5.5 inches.) It seems to me that a 4 inch import vise isn't going to make things that much worse. IE, just another component where you need to learn the limitations and how to live with them.

You also mentioned financial constraints. Maybe if you can make some money on some less-demanding parts now, that would put you in a position to upgrade in the future?

FWIW,

Craig

*I take the approach that inexpensive imports are a "kit" with parts that at a minimum need cleaning and deburring before use.

 

[Dabbler]

I'd use a grinding vise like this on a small machine like that...

 

[PeterT]

The other issue I failed to mention is the typical mill vise mounting lugs requires you to intersect the T-slots of our specific machine. A smaller mill table may or may not play nice compared to a Bridgeport. That bolt position will define where the vise can land in cross slide (Y-axis I think). That may be OK or may work against you depending on part & machining operation. Whereas the grinder style of vise with a continuous rail can be clamped anywhere because side clamps are in the T-slots. Or you can put vise on an angle.

IMO (mainly for the size of your machine) avoid the machine vises with separate angle set casting underneath or at least make sure its removable. Its yet another vertical layer that reduces your working height. They are rarely accurate except on more expensive vises, just crude angle tick marks that you have to validate anyways unless you are just ballparking. And on bad vices they can be out in a planar sense so adversely affecting your main vise angle (been there done that).

 

[PeterT]

This style of grinder vise has through holes vs a rail. I'm actually not sure if that doubles as hold down for pin style clamps. Or if clamping is reserved to the front & rear indentations. You might have to research this more. I prefer the continuous notch rail down the side for this reason but I might not have the full story.

 

[PeterT]

LMS is OK but most of the vise/accessory stuff they are selling is pretty common Asian offerings. So factor in the USA shipping etc. But they seem to be good to deal with. They do have a few things I haven't seen elsewhere like very short length parallels. Not sure if that's an example of private label?

 

[YYCHM]

LMS is OK but most of the vise/accessory stuff they are selling is pretty common Asian offerings. So factor in the USA shipping etc. But they seem to be good to deal with. They do have a few things I haven't seen elsewhere like very short length parallels. Not sure if that's an example of private label?

LMS's shipping charges are a killer.

 

[Tom Kitta]

That is mini mill sized machine. For them 4" are very big. I also think a large grinding vise may be the ticket.

They are small and relatively cheap yet they are precise. You can get them off aliexpress.

 

[Dabbler]

The most important feature of a grinding vise is that they hold the work very well. Best cost tradeoff for a small mill IMHO. Stefan Gotteswinter used a 4" one on his small mill for years...

Anything SG does is worth considering.

 

[Janger]

Get out the tape measure and model how big any given vise would be on your mill table. A dx6 etc will be gigantic. Peter outlined the sizing aspects well. Get a grinding vise like dabbler Tom etc advise. On my small mill I have a centering vise from BB. It’s about the right size. Small.