Ironman
Ultra Member
One of my favourite guys, Joe Pie has a short vid on how to create a height standard.
What he says makes sense to me.
What he says makes sense to me.
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- Thread starter ColinB
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As I get older, confusion becomes more, just trying to understand what some people are talking about is too much some days. The common language is changing, maybe it always has.
And I agree about indicators, and Vernier calipers, a caliber was generally a tool with no size reference and you got a measurement from a rule, micromiter etc. At one time you probably made your own maybe as part of appentiscing. A vernier caliber had a scale on the beam and another on the slide, sometimes tough to read (in1/64ths. Etc.). A Vernier "dial" caliper, much easier. A Vernier "digital" caliper, kind of a no brainer. And so on.
One that gets me, is "#" , the pound/number sign. What the &$@00!! Hash tag?? A hash mark, or a hash tag was a chevron shaped mark Carved into your hide and let scar, arm and faces seemed to be popular.
I once read the cover of a magazine at work, my take on it was "pound me too" some guy was talking/writing about violence in the work place or something. As I had said this out loud, in a meeting, and added "what's this ¥€$$ going on about". There was a very stunned silence, a few mouths dropped. It was then explained to me "it means, hash tag me too". I then "explained what a hash tag was" and then what the" # " number/pound sign meant. Seems they didn't like it!!
The one thing that doesn't change is my bad spelling, "spell check" seems not able to handle all of it either!!
And I agree about indicators, and Vernier calipers, a caliber was generally a tool with no size reference and you got a measurement from a rule, micromiter etc. At one time you probably made your own maybe as part of appentiscing. A vernier caliber had a scale on the beam and another on the slide, sometimes tough to read (in1/64ths. Etc.). A Vernier "dial" caliper, much easier. A Vernier "digital" caliper, kind of a no brainer. And so on.
One that gets me, is "#" , the pound/number sign. What the &$@00!! Hash tag?? A hash mark, or a hash tag was a chevron shaped mark Carved into your hide and let scar, arm and faces seemed to be popular.
I once read the cover of a magazine at work, my take on it was "pound me too" some guy was talking/writing about violence in the work place or something. As I had said this out loud, in a meeting, and added "what's this ¥€$$ going on about". There was a very stunned silence, a few mouths dropped. It was then explained to me "it means, hash tag me too". I then "explained what a hash tag was" and then what the" # " number/pound sign meant. Seems they didn't like it!!
The one thing that doesn't change is my bad spelling, "spell check" seems not able to handle all of it either!!
I saw his a while back. It's basically the same method that I use without a few of the bells and whistles. While I did consider it, mine is big enough that I didn't bother with the magnet. It's never been a problem.
What I REALLY liked in his video was that General Indicator Holder. After a few years of looking for one, I ended up finding one on ebay, but I have come to prefer the Erick Magna holder instead - go figure.
Actually, I'd like to kick that no brainer out of your head if you will let me. The word Vernier refers to the two side by side scales that are etched into the metal - they are deliberately offset in such a way that allows you to see which one lines up best. The best match gives you the last digit (thousandth) or sometimes more of the measirement. You can have Vernier scales on all kinds of different devices ranging from Calipers to rotary tables. It's a very precise mechanical way to get very fine resolution. There are even programs on the net that you can use to make your own Vernier scales.
Technically speaking, there is no such thing as a Digital Vernier Caliper. It is just a Digital Caliper.because there is no Vernier scale on it.
But you can rest assured that you are not the only one who calls them Verniers. I see them called Verniers instead of Calipers everywhere I go. But if you want to impress a machinist who really knows his stuff, just call them calipers because that's what they really are. Then add either dial or digital or Vernier or nothing. Yes, there are calipers that don't have any of the 3 types. Those ones are just plain old calipers.
If you want to keep calling them Verniers, that's ok too. It's definitely a growing trend. But when some old guy looks at you funny, at least you will know why.
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Personally, I can't recall anyone ever calling them vernier digital calipers or digital vernier calipers, just digital calipers, or calipers, the one that gets me is all the people that call a face mill a fly cutter.
Further to what Susquatch is saying, here is a random picture from the net. The second scale is made 10x, 100x, 1000x larger (spaces between the increments) and allows you to read the next digits of the number that are too small to read from the main scale. The key is to look for where the marks go from 'too much' to 'too little' - or in this contrived example, just right
There is no conceptual reason why a digital caliper couldn't be made to work this way, but I don't think they are. It is too easy to make a regularly spaced pattern of glass etc. at 1 thou +/- 0.1 thou with modern machines. That's an increment approximately 25,000x larger than the base lithography size for a modern CPU
There is no conceptual reason why a digital caliper couldn't be made to work this way, but I don't think they are. It is too easy to make a regularly spaced pattern of glass etc. at 1 thou +/- 0.1 thou with modern machines. That's an increment approximately 25,000x larger than the base lithography size for a modern CPU
I agree Susquatch about the calipers, brain sometimes going faster then the typing finger, sometimes other way round. Now I have to look at the "digital calipers" I have. I am thinking there's one that has a scale on it, but maybe that is pattern/design on the beam and nothing on the slide and " maybe" my memory!
Sometime a lot of people look at me funny.
Sometime a lot of people look at me funny.
Many digital calipers do also have scales on them, but just not the Vernier scale. I think the scale is just an alternate quick & dirty independent 'ruler' for your eyeball. Hard to know why manufacturer decided to include or omit. Maybe as a sanity check to the common offshore models that lose their display marbles when the power goes off. Turn the power on again, jaws happen to be open 0.25", display says 0.000" & does not line up to the scale. OK I'm grasping at straws here. Sometimes scale is etched, sometimes its a sticker (and not well aligned if you examine real cheap models). It cant cost much or they would skip it altogether.
Many digital micrometers also have thimble scales on them. I may have even seen one that also has the Vernier scale, but for sure it is not the norm. Again, why I'm not sure why. Maybe to please a larger age span machinists so the same mic can be used by either or? Or if the battery dies you are still in business? Or it uses common parts from mechanical line & they don't have to re-tool? Kind of a side note but something to consider on digital mics when buying, there are different permutations. Some have an IMP/MET switch which seems obvious enough. These could have MET engraved thimble, or IMP engraved thimble, or no engravings on thimble. Then there are MET or IMP which digital display of those units only, no IMP/MET switching.
Many digital micrometers also have thimble scales on them. I may have even seen one that also has the Vernier scale, but for sure it is not the norm. Again, why I'm not sure why. Maybe to please a larger age span machinists so the same mic can be used by either or? Or if the battery dies you are still in business? Or it uses common parts from mechanical line & they don't have to re-tool? Kind of a side note but something to consider on digital mics when buying, there are different permutations. Some have an IMP/MET switch which seems obvious enough. These could have MET engraved thimble, or IMP engraved thimble, or no engravings on thimble. Then there are MET or IMP which digital display of those units only, no IMP/MET switching.
I agree with your thinking and observations Peter. Then there is also those times when the user zeros the device deliberately and then forgets, or by accident and don't even know it. It always helps to have a non-vernier scale there as a sanity check.
I have a micrometer that has a mechanical digital readout on it along with a regular marked barrel and thimble. One reads imperial, the other metric.
Then there are the times using a digital caliper and the battery dies as figuring out the last cut for the finish, max zeroed ! I mostly use dial calipers, but the digital units are great for converting to metric and versa vice, tho I was shown my phone has a good convertor on it, and I do use it.
Then there are the times using a digital caliper and the battery dies as figuring out the last cut for the finish, max zeroed ! I mostly use dial calipers, but the digital units are great for converting to metric and versa vice, tho I was shown my phone has a good convertor on it, and I do use it.
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MrWhoopee
Well-Known Member
^^^This^^^
Here's mine.
I put a RE magnet in the base (recessed .003) so it's very solid.
I also get irritated when people use incorrect terms like calling digital calipers "verniers". Machinists are supposed to be precise, that should apply to speech as well as parts.
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MrWhoopee
Well-Known Member
As it turns out, I've never needed to adjust it. The center height of my lathe has never changed.
I suppose if I got another lathe....
Agree that "MACHINISTs" are supposed to be precise but that is why this site is titled "HOBBY" as very few of us, myself included, are "MACHINISTs". So if you wish to correct someone in what maybe an incorrect term to you that's okay but here you must expect errors in machine use and terminology.
It's the same for the brand of machinery used by the members, no one cares what brand machines are used it's all about how it's used and the enjoyment of making and sharing things.
Interesting way to look at it. I wasn't thinking so much about ongoing adjustability as I was about hitting a target dimension. Nobody likes starting over.....
Jswain
Joe
I sure hope my machining never gets as bad as my English
Ironman
Ultra Member
If you ever work in a place where they are dragging junk in the door to be fixed every day, you would realize that hobby machinists are very often way more anal and whimper on about a 1/2 thou. Production guys soon realize the customer just wants it to be round again. I remember using a Polish lathe one time in a shop and it was out by .5 in a foot and I could not do a job on it. Told the boss and he called an old guy over and said can you help. This guy knew how to keep backing out the crossfeed as it progressed and got it round enough and it would fit the bearing. Accurate? Naa. I asked why not line it up and fix it. He said it works fine as it is.
But you are right, hobby is about pleasure and enjoying making something from scrap metal. I showed my ball burnisher to a friend and he was fascinated and I pointed out a mistake and he could not see it. He said, so what, it works well, right? They don't understand....
Dabbler
ersatz engineer
I proudly told my mentour that I had bought a Marr Miliness indicator - he said you have 2 Mitutoyo DTis, so why? I then said "it reads to 5 millionths..." His honest answer "what are you ever going to do with that?"
He's a tool and die maker, but still has in his way, the 'good enough' attitude...