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Tips/Techniques Poll - Paint Can Spinner - tell me what I should charge

Tips/Techniques

Paint Can Spinner Price

  • $29

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • $25

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • $19

    Votes: 3 33.3%
  • $15

    Votes: 2 22.2%
  • I think I might like to buy one when available.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Not interested.

    Votes: 5 55.6%

  • Total voters
    9

Janger

(John)
Administrator
Vendor
I've often wondered why a ball is even used unless it lends itself to can insertion. Its not really a great mixer-upper shape, especially gas & liquid. My own experience is the solvent & paint mix & then its diminishing returns. A lot of guys swear that moderate heat is better, softer spray or better build. But paints in spray bombs vary all over the map, who knows. I have heard there could also be some kind of valve effect inside a chamber but doesn't seem clear. Also turns out balls can also be made of glass so excessive mechanical shaking could result in adverse effects?


I think the ball in the paint is usually a marble or a ball bearing - whatever is cheapest I'm sure. The ball is to knock the pigment off the bottom of the can so it will mix. Like the pigment stuck to the bottom of a old paint 4l can that you scrape off and mix into the liquid.
 

Janger

(John)
Administrator
Vendor
My thoughts on this is that once the ball hits its balance speed the mixing more or less stops and everything spins static inside the tin. I used several "ball bearing" wheel balancers on 18 wheelers to fine tune those big wheels that in use on roads treated by water trucks and such, they get covered with differing gobs & thickness's of mud at any given time so "balance" by the minute. If you didnt have one of those bearing balancers on every wheel you had continual changing "out-of-balance" vibrations.
Every time you started out from a stop you can feel & hear those ball bearings but at a very low speed ( around 15 kmh) they positioned themselves where they needed to be to override an unbalanced condition and everything just settles down and the ball quit moving....I supect the same thing happens in the paint can that when the ball inside is positioned by centrifugal force that mixing stops so a high spin speed actually kills mixing action, the slow start speed prob does a better job.

Lots of posts this week. That is gratifying - I've been busy at work and missed all this.

There are a lot of different questions and about whether this sort of spin mixer will actually work. Does the ball get stuck? Does it actually mix? Is fast a bad idea? Is slow better? what about pulsing and reversing?

People made a few suggestions about ideas on how to observe this. I put together a clear plastic bottle of oil,water, and peanut butter and a ball bearing. The vortex formed inside the bottle is really strong and fast - think of a blender mixing up ice, pineapple, juice etc. It is pretty quick and homogenizes the various parts into a consistent mixture. The test of the oil & water results in a homogenous mixture in less than 5 seconds. I'll post a video. If you see the video Alex posted the can is really rattling around inside the spinner. I think it is knocking the ball around but I can't hear it as my drills are too loud.

Theory & speculation is pretty irrelevant. The only real test is does it work? with paint? Yes. I've done a bunch of tests on my old spray paint cans. As far as I can tell 15 seconds or maybe 30 seems to mix any of my cans with any combination of spinning/reversing/fast/slow whatever with no perceivable difference. So some field testing by other people spraying projects is needed. I delivered a few to people in YYC and I'm hoping for some posts on results.

I was sceptical too when I saw these on you tube. Does that actually work? Once I made one and tried it I was convinced enough to make a bunch up.

I did make one with the axle offset by 5mm. That was not much but even that little bit bent the 3/8 bolt during some short test runs. Dabbler suggested trying a smaller offset perhaps 0.5mm. I'd like to try that.

Thanks forum for the feedback and ideas. Here's the demo video.

 
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Janger

(John)
Administrator
Vendor
My thoughts on this is that once the ball hits its balance speed the mixing more or less stops and everything spins static inside the tin. I used several "ball bearing" wheel balancers on 18 wheelers to fine tune those big wheels that in use on roads treated by water trucks and such, they get covered with differing gobs & thickness's of mud at any given time so "balance" by the minute. If you didnt have one of those bearing balancers on every wheel you had continual changing "out-of-balance" vibrations.
Every time you started out from a stop you can feel & hear those ball bearings but at a very low speed ( around 15 kmh) they positioned themselves where they needed to be to override an unbalanced condition and everything just settles down and the ball quit moving....I supect the same thing happens in the paint can that when the ball inside is positioned by centrifugal force that mixing stops so a high spin speed actually kills mixing action, the slow start speed prob does a better job.
@historicalarms that is a very interesting mechanism for the 18 wheeler wheels. Is that ball bearing dynamic balancing mechanism attached to the hub? or inside the rim? I've never heard of that before pretty smart. At the mine's I support they have many haul trucks with 12 foot diameter wheels - do those wheels have these kind of balancers?
 

DPittman

Ultra Member
Premium Member
Saw a video of a guy that bought a can shaker, can came loose and rubbed a hole in the side.......black paint everywhere including his bald head. :)
I had a spray can explode right in my hand once. I'm trying to build the courage to tell the story of my stupidity. Maybe I can post under a new topic " Stupid things I've done"
 

Janger

(John)
Administrator
Vendor
Yes you can see the vortex pretty clear for the first few seconds before it goes all cloudy.
 

Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
I think I'm going to have to take another take of that video - I seem a bit annoyed :D

Ya, redo it. It shows. LOL!

But then again it's understandable. I think all of us would feel the same when we see it works and others say no without even trying. When you do it, don't present it as a way to prove others wrong, but rather as an explanation of how it works. I love the water bottle with peanut butter in it.

I confess to having been among the doubters. But as @PeterT noted, there is a big difference between conventional agitation (which was my mind's goto assumption) and creating a density based vortex. They are NOT the same! I can shake an aerosol can, but I can't physically spin it. Your gizmo can! Consider wearing a spinner cap in your demo video..... LOL!

In that sense, I don't see the value of an offset. But I do like that the can is able to flop around. I also like the start and stop effect you introduced as well as moving the whole affair around to destabilize its gyroscopic spin.

Good stuff John. Too bad I hate painting......
 

historicalarms

Ultra Member
@historicalarms that is a very interesting mechanism for the 18 wheeler wheels. Is that ball bearing dynamic balancing mechanism attached to the hub? or inside the rim? I've never heard of that before pretty smart. At the mine's I support they have many haul trucks with 12 foot diameter wheels - do those wheels have these kind of balancers?
The balls are in a continous hoop track ( sealed of course so dust or mud never interfere with the ball movement.
the hoop tracks are welded to a thin flat piece of metal that has holes in it that correspond to the studs on a bud wheel...the whole thing is just slid on the hub studs and then the wheel goes on, when the stud nuts are tightened it just pinches the steel plate into a static position. I used these balancers religiously after trying a couple out. I used one on each steering tire and one inside each dual and one between each dual set. At the time I bought them they were about $1500 a set but considerable less tire wear & a "mostly smoothed out ride "made it a worthwhile expenditure ( and a set lasted many sets of tires before the balls wore thru the ball track.
I dont know if any big enough for those mine trucks are built but they sure could be. Just noodling here but would imagine the balls would have to be big as softballs to balance the weight and centrifugal force of that sized wheel.
 
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KeeponDragon

Super User
I like the video. It clearly illustrates whats going on inside the can with the two liquids, and the peanut butter.
I took a moment to educate myself and learned that the propellants in aerosols are commonly liquid-gas (propane, butane, isobutane)
With that info, the vortex effect in the can is almost certain. I had doubts before, as I thought propellants were of a compressed air nature.
But yeah, John?
Smile for fxxxx sake lol
 
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Janger

(John)
Administrator
Vendor
You know when you open a can of paint that has been sitting a long long time. You can see the water, and under that is some liquid stuff (maybe polymer?), and then pigment stuck to the bottom of the can? I think the spray cans are similar. A liquid solvent layer to suspend the pigment, the pigment stuck on the bottom. When you shake the can you can feel the solvent sloshing around kinda but thick. As you shake it more and more it starts loosen up and then it feels more like a liquid in the can. And then the propellant is a gas - well sort of gas/liquid like your bbq propane tank. Propellant it's on top of the solvent. Ever shake your BBQ propane tank? The propane is sloshing around but it does not quite feel like a tank of water. It's more mushy somehow. A glass pressurized container would be interesting to see what is happening inside. maybe there is a you tube on that...
 

Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
Ever shake your BBQ propane tank? The propane is sloshing around but it does not quite feel like a tank of water. It's more mushy somehow. A glass pressurized container would be interesting to see what is happening inside. maybe there is a you tube on that...

I cannot tell you about what is all going on inside a paint container, but I think what you describe is pretty good. However, I can tell you exactly what is happening inside the propane tank. I have done what you are wondering about and much much more.

Without getting too complicated, propane is a hydrocarbon that is a gas at standard atmospheric temperature and pressure - each molecule of that propane is a combination of three carbon atoms and eight hydrogen atoms - C3H8.

The equilibrium vapour pressure of propane varies quite significantly with temperature. The higher the temperature, the higher the pressure. At normal temperatures, a pressure vessel is required. The lower the temperature, the lower the pressure. In fact, at -45, you can carry propane around in a pail and it looks and sloshes around a lot like water. At first, it will boil a little. But that isn't the propane, that is the butane and other gasses boiling off that are in there too. When they are gone, all that is left is liquid propane and other lower pressure molecules.

C3H8 Propane is a much bigger molecule than H2O water. Even though it is much bigger, it is much lighter than water. Basically, the individual molecules are much further apart - which has a lot to do with its higher vapour pressure too. In fact, a pail of liquid propane weighs about half of what a pail of liquid water weighs.

Now, to answer your question. When you agitate a container of propane you add energy and because the propane is in a state of perfect balance between gas and liquid, it starts to boil a bit and all the gas and liquid mixes more readily than water does because its so much lighter. Basically, it foams easier and forms a foamy mixture. The pressure goes up a tiny bit (hard to even measure) but it's enough to maintain the higher gas liquid ratio until it settles back down to a more stratified equilibrium of liquid at the bottom and gas at the top.

It's worth adding here that the other stuff in there (butane etc) can change that behaviour a fair bit. So your propane bottle may not act exactly like mine.

Also, it very much depends on how full the container is. A full container (about 80%) cannot foam as much as a nearly empty one can.

Note - The industry tried unsuccessfully to get standards for propane. But as far as I know it never happened. So nobody can predict exactly what is all in there - and it can include some very nasty stuff....

In essence, what you perceived is correct. But it's better to call it foam than slush.
 
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Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
Awesome John! Love it!

Even the runaway water bottle was GREAT! Your laugh said it all!

Short and to the point.

The only way to improve on that would be a better looking actor to demonstrate for you ..... JK'ing!
 

Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
You've got competition

Hmmmm..... Think you need a steady rest there or your lathe and you will both be dark grey. In fact the whole room might get a new dark grey paint job. Please post a photo of your eyes afterward......

Wait, only use a steady with live followers or.......

Wait, how much do you plan to retail that mixer for.....

Wait, can you send me a free prototype to test for you?

Wait, I think you should hire a lawyer first.....

On second thought, just wait......

PS - yes I know it's a joke. A very funny one too!
 
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