I've got one of those, but I usually just refer to as "black tape".
Tool Oxy propane torch
- Thread starter Doggggboy
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Tool
SomeGuy
Hobbyist
Tell that to your insurance company if something happens. Hose is cheap, just use the right one.
Jswain
Joe
Can you show me one example of someone "blowing up there garage" with r grade hose & propane?
SomeGuy
Hobbyist
There are plenty of instances of oxy-fuel explosions happening....let me guess though, flashback arrestors are a waste too because you've never had a flashblack? and you run your acetylene at over 15psi because you've never had it decompose? and you draw wayyyy too many btu from a small tank because it's fine?
Jswain
Joe
My torch has flashback arrestors built in, I also have a set not installed for the regs in case I use a torch without.
Acetylene is expensive so I use as little as possible to do the job. And when I need to draw more BTU then my acetylene tank can safely let me withdraw I switch to propane.
So plenty examples of oxy-fuel explosions, but you can't provide 1 that was using r grade hose?
I don't know if your house would still be standing if an acetylene tank blew up in your garage, a coffee cup worth of gas will knock the dust off the rafters in a 3000sq ft shop
I had a few friends try to fill a garbage bag off the bottle, the resulting explosion blew all 3 guys clear of the truck, sending them to the hospital with perforated ear drums, heavily damaged the truck, tool boxes and welder that was beside the bottles.....I highly doubt they even got a cubic foot the bag before the static set it off
I had a few friends try to fill a garbage bag off the bottle, the resulting explosion blew all 3 guys clear of the truck, sending them to the hospital with perforated ear drums, heavily damaged the truck, tool boxes and welder that was beside the bottles.....I highly doubt they even got a cubic foot the bag before the static set it off
I have watched various videos of the aftermath of propane exploisens, one of a test with 1 lt. of propane put in an old house and set off. It seems this one rewrote a bunch of rules about propane safety! --- the house did not exist after! Work stuff, some of the videos I seen at least a dozen times. Luckily, never experienced. We also ran " what to do/not do" a lot.
SomeGuy
Hobbyist
Plenty of examples of oxy-fuel explosions, most don't mention the cause...not hard to search for:
But to know if the failure was operator, tanks, flashbacks, leaks, etc. good luck.
The entire point here, is the right hose is CHEAP, like less than the cost of filling a tank, so just use the right parts...the withdrawl and flashback comments were made because sure you can get away without those safety features, but one slip up and kaboom. All it takes is for the hose to spring a leak right while you're cutting and then having it ignite, the odds are higher that this will happen and you don't inspect it EVERY SINGLE TIME you use it if you use the wrong type of hose.
Ironman
Ultra Member
I have use propane/oxy torches since 1965 when I bought my first one. The liquid Air salesman pumped out the same stuff. and added that I would never be able to buy tips for a Model 519 torch. I looked behind him on the display wall and said "Oh, look, there goes one now!" He spun around and shuddered, and then sold me the tip and a torch. I used propane then and now, the standard acetylene regulators and twin hose. They will also tell you you can't gas weld with it. I dragged a guy over by the ear last time and welded several pieces of 4" pipe together with my propane cutting torch and haywire. But these days I don't care enough to save people from themselves.
Next mythology is Oh they use 4 times a much oxygen as a real acetylene torch. No. They Don't. The flame is loud and hisses as a result of the two piece tip design so the legend grows. The propane bottle weighs 20 times less, and is not subject to exothermic detonation and demurrage charges.
Next myth, They are impossible to light. Yes. They are difficult to light if you have not been shown, but the easiest way to light a pane torch is to hold it 3-4 inches from a surface and then use the striker and they will light in a wind.
The greatest heat in a propane ox flame is a 1/4" beyond the end of the bright blue. A bit of playing around will show you where a neutral flame is, and the zone is small, as there is not much carbon in pane.. I cut with a slight oxidizing flame and heat with neutral.
Ironman
Ultra Member
The internet rumor was started with a grain of truth and fertilized with bulshit. The truth is that a ordinary black certified propane hose will degrade from the inside if filled with propane gas and left in the sunlight for a few months. As the pane supplier explained to me, the heat will crack the gas molecules into some chemical(forgot the names) and these attack the rubber compounds. So he said always use copper for a permanent installation.
From this humble fact it grew into a monster and I'm sure some have capitalized on it....hell, I would.
Ironman
Ultra Member
I have a 3/4", 2", and 3" Harris rosebud tip. I have used the 3" for bending 3x7" stock and I can tell you that frost will be growing all over both tanks and regulators. Harris is the only one that I know makes serious heating tips, and I adapted them to my Victor mixer with a machined adapter and silver solder.
Here is one of mine https://harrisweldingsupplies.com/harris-2290-5h-alternate-fuel-heavy-heating-tip-1800170/
thats not a myth, the ratio of oxygen to propane for a neutral flame is ~4:1, it is ~1:1 for oxy/act. I run oxy/propane on my welding truck, i can tell you for sure 100% i go through considerably more oxygen than i ever did with acetylene, those pesky science types didn't lie about that one.
As for the class T hoses, i dont doubt non T hoses will degrade.....eventually....but in reality you will be replacing the hoses from normal abuse long before the hoses are ever degraded enough internally enough to be of any concern.
I prefer acetylene personally, it is a little nicer to use, hotter (higher flame temp, lower btu), but...unless you want to lease bottles, its a real pain to get.....i guess i could step back 50 years and scrouge together an acetylene generator
Bottles dont explode regularly, im not sure why that misconception is floating around on this thread, heck i know of two welding trucks that burned to the ground with acetylene bottles on them, neither exploded. Countless leaky hoses with flames shooting out the side, even watched a guy slice both hoses clean off with a pipe cut off (beveller), flame shooting out the end, no explosion. Im not saying it has never happened, but thats the most surely exception. Heck you definitely dont have to worry about the insurance company coming after you if it ever did happen, hard to sue pink mist.
That being said, acetylene in an upturned Styrofoam cup makes one hell of a boom
Jswain
Joe
Yup but all the internet peeps who haven't tried it will tell ya it don't work!
Jswain
Joe
I watched my boss running a tiger torch turn around to light a smoke and burned right through the tiger torch hose hooked to a 30lb bottle of propane.thats not a myth, the ratio of oxygen to propane for a neutral flame is ~4:1, it is ~1:1 for oxy/act. I run oxy/propane on my welding truck, i can tell you for sure 100% i go through considerably more oxygen than i ever did with acetylene, those pesky science types didn't lie about that one.
As for the class T hoses, i dont doubt non T hoses will degrade.....eventually....but in reality you will be replacing the hoses from normal abuse long before the hoses are ever degraded enough internally enough to be of any concern.
I prefer acetylene personally, it is a little nicer to use, hotter (higher flame temp, lower btu), but...unless you want to lease bottles, its a real pain to get.....i guess i could step back 50 years and scrouge together an acetylene generator
Bottles dont explode regularly, im not sure why that misconception is floating around on this thread, heck i know of two welding trucks that burned to the ground with acetylene bottles on them, neither exploded. Countless leaky hoses with flames shooting out the side, even watched a guy slice both hoses clean off with a pipe cut off (beveller), flame shooting out the end, no explosion. Im not saying it has never happened, but thats the most surely exception. Heck you definitely dont have to worry about the insurance company coming after you, hard to sue pink mist.
That being said, acetylene in an upturned Styrofoam cup makes one hell of a boom
Got a little sketchy but no boom
Ironman
Ultra Member
I'm sure that he then realized smoking can kill you
Every gas has an explosive range mixed with air. Gasoline is 1-15 percent with air. Hydrogen which will save the environment Bwaahhaha has an explosive range from 4% to 74% Below or above these ranges it will only burn
Eek, that must have been embarrassing for him, being the boss should mean your over those first year apprentice type mistakes
I had a kid just about do that to a set of hoses on me, caught him in time, just a good scorch mark on the hoses.....not sure how it didnt burn through, oxy/act hoses must be more durable than the propane only hoses on tiger torches. His torch lessons were done for that day, to careless still.
You have the right idea, but technically speaking, the process is much more complicated. I believe you are referring to the flammability range. But the numbers you are quoting are very specific to a given temperature and pressure. As temperature and pressure change, so does the flammability range.
The other issue that arises is the gas density. Gasoline, propane, butane, and map gases are heavier than air. So the mixture of fuel and air gets richer as you get closer to the ground. Even at a mixture of 0.5 gasoline can burn if ignited because that mixture ratio will increase as you get closer to the ground. On the other hand Acetylene is lighter than air and will collect and concentrate on ceilings and attic spaces.
You might ask how that can be since you can easily smell even a tiny gas leak. That's because an oderant called ethylmercaptan (a sulphur derivative) is deliberately added to most flammable gases that is not heavier or lighter than air. The oderant reaches your nose as gases like propane spill to the ground like a fog rolling over a cliff.
As stated earlier, the flammability range at which a given gas will burn is also very much dependent on the temperature and pressure. I didn't bother getting graphs to show this relationship but they should be easy to find on the internet for anyone who is curious.
There is also a specific temperature and pressure point at which many flammable gases will self detonate without a source of ignition. That's why a diesel engine doesn't need spark plugs. Diesel engines have a high compression ratio that increases the mixture pressure sufficient to self ignite diesel oil in air at the right mixtures.
Well, strictly speaking that isn't true. What really happens above and below the flammability range is a localized change in temperature and mixture that puts the gas inside its flammability range. Gas that is really outside its range won't burn at all.
Even burning vs exploding is complicated. The definitions vary widely. For the most part, flammable gases burn so quickly that its reasonable to describe them as explosions. I am not the Bible on this subject, but I like to think about the presense of a flame front. Burning gases that require an ignition and have a flame front are burning. Gasses that self detonate from changes in pressure are exploding. Both processes are very rapid and very dangerous.
Things change yet again if you add oxygen enriched environments. Yes, it's all very complicated. I think that's one of the reasons why so many urban legends exist.
In my opinion, it's best to play it safe on all counts and don't make any assumptions about what is safe and what isn't.
Some good info on propane there "phaxtris" and "Ironman".
I am not sure why, a lot of people think every thing is going to catch fire/blow up if you don't do this or don't use that. Kind of a given, cut or get a hole in about any fuel line and you may have a fire if there's a way of ignition Explosions and burning as also stated by "Ironman" are when gas/fumes are in the right ratio to air.
Propane coming out of a line does not burn until it gets away from the line and mixes with the air ( also depends on flow and speed) how far away. In our exercises at work, a 11/2 inch pipe pointing up was hooked up to propane supply and lit up. The flame would be very close to the end of the pipe, increase the flow/pressure, the flame moved away from the pipe. The flame could be 12inches or more away. Nothing exploded. The IMPORTANT lesson for us was don't put the flame out if there's not a way to shut the gas flow/supply off. You can see where its burning, you generly can't see the gas or where its going, that's when troubles can start. An ignition source, the right air mix and Bang, a bad day.
Use the safety gear, use the gear safely, I hope no one ever has a fire or explosion!
See "Susquatch's" post above, its a very complicated "science", wrote while I was one finger typing.
I am in no way trying to marginalize the dangers of fuels and various gases, they are dangerous, they can kill you, or make you wish you had dyed, some of the idiots I have seen at the gas station make me want to run away!
Keep in mind, carbon monoxide can also be flammable/explosive in higher consentrayions ( dam spell check), and is about the same weight as air, there's no right? height for detectors, natural gas is lighter then air, detectors up high, propane, detectors low.
Who was it said "stupid people can learn, idiots are what wars are for" harsh perhaps, thankfully I am still trying to learn!
Am I an expert, no, as I said still learning AND, making mistakes!
I am not sure why, a lot of people think every thing is going to catch fire/blow up if you don't do this or don't use that. Kind of a given, cut or get a hole in about any fuel line and you may have a fire if there's a way of ignition Explosions and burning as also stated by "Ironman" are when gas/fumes are in the right ratio to air.
Propane coming out of a line does not burn until it gets away from the line and mixes with the air ( also depends on flow and speed) how far away. In our exercises at work, a 11/2 inch pipe pointing up was hooked up to propane supply and lit up. The flame would be very close to the end of the pipe, increase the flow/pressure, the flame moved away from the pipe. The flame could be 12inches or more away. Nothing exploded. The IMPORTANT lesson for us was don't put the flame out if there's not a way to shut the gas flow/supply off. You can see where its burning, you generly can't see the gas or where its going, that's when troubles can start. An ignition source, the right air mix and Bang, a bad day.
Use the safety gear, use the gear safely, I hope no one ever has a fire or explosion!
See "Susquatch's" post above, its a very complicated "science", wrote while I was one finger typing.
I am in no way trying to marginalize the dangers of fuels and various gases, they are dangerous, they can kill you, or make you wish you had dyed, some of the idiots I have seen at the gas station make me want to run away!
Keep in mind, carbon monoxide can also be flammable/explosive in higher consentrayions ( dam spell check), and is about the same weight as air, there's no right? height for detectors, natural gas is lighter then air, detectors up high, propane, detectors low.
Who was it said "stupid people can learn, idiots are what wars are for" harsh perhaps, thankfully I am still trying to learn!
Am I an expert, no, as I said still learning AND, making mistakes!
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As an interesting aside, one can tell that the fire on the Hindenburg airship was not primarily a hydrogen fire because of the shape of the flames. Hydrogen can't burn in that patten because it needs oxygen from the air. That patten indicates self oxidizing combustion over the skin, followed by a secondary hydrogen fire above the airship as the released gas mixes with the air and then burns