New member from Abbotsford!
- Thread starter Rudeboy
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Those
are wheely nice pictures!
There is a potential issue that you maybe have not thought about.
It isn't quite as simple as getting a lathe with enough throw. You also need to be able to get a tool in there to cut whatever you have in the chuck. Generally speaking a 16 inch lathe can cut the face of a 16 inch diameter workpiece, but the cross-slide, tool holder and tools may not be able to reach out and around that diameter to cut the outer rim off from the front or rear of the rim. Cutting from the inside isn't easy either because you have a lot of tooling in the line of action waiting to eat your rim alive or get eaten by it. There is a lot of inertial energy in that spinning flywheel that you are calling a rim.
There are various tricks that can be used, but I'm thinking that you should take a rim over to someone who has such a lathe and get a first hand look at the problems of actually mounting and cutting such a part the way that you want to do it.
I'd hate to see you buy, move, and install a big beast like that only to discover that you can't do what you want to do.
The other thing worth thinking about is your specialized application. It seems a shame to get such a big lathe just to cut wheels apart. You might want to spend some time thinking about other ways to do it. The job does not need a big lathe. You might be able to use an axle and wheel Hub(s) spun up by a motor on a custom fixture (let's call it a custom made wheel rim cutting lathe) to do what you want cheaply and effectively. Then you can get a smaller better lathe to make your bushings and other parts.
I'm a retired automotive engineer and farmer now. I've always liked to fabricobble stuff and make my own things - especially tools. A big lathe would be my last alternative to do that job of yours. I'd much rather get a really good lathe for everything else and make something special to do what you want to do. Especially since such a special tool might do the job so much faster, easier, and safer too.
I had one of those and it served me well, but it does not have the grunt for what you want to do. It only has a 3/4 hp motor and the 3 jaw chuck is 4 " and the 4 jaw I believe was 5". I don't think it would have enough torque to spin those rims and do some machining on them if you could mount them . It definitely would not turn slow enough to machine that diameter. I don't think the cross slide will come out far enough to reach that diameter. I think the spindle is mounted that high to accommodate the chuck height for the mill.
Rudeboy
Member
Some people have converted brake lathes to work but not all models work and currently none for sale that could accommodate a whole wheel. I’ve got an old tire balancer that I thought about converting as well but I think the body of it would be too flimsy to be able to bolt tooling to
Rudeboy
Member
Generally the rim I’m cutting off is 2.5” or smaller so I’m hopeful the cross slide could reach far enough for me to get a parting tool in there. I’m currently outsourcing the splitting but the 3 week+ lead times are killing me and I think the machine could pay for itself in a year or two. I’m not sold on the machine entirely as I think it is a little small for the job but I think I will take a look at it and bring a wheel with me to see if it makes sense. I already have a 12” lathe for small turning but the only wheel job I’ve been able to do was trimming down a set of 11” Centres. I did make that jig to mount the grinder to the tire machine but I’m really not happy with it.
You know what you are doing, but we don't. Certainly I don't. Can you post a drawing or a photo of a wheel that has been separated in the way that you intend to do so I can visualize what you are trying to do.
Also, the minute you mention parting, my spidey senses get tingly. Parting requires mega rigidity. I don't immediately see how that can be achieved on a regular lathe with a component that is so big.
It might be WAAAY easier to cut it with a grinding or cut-off wheel on a custom machine than parting on a lathe.
I agree that a balancer is not gunna work very well. But the principles are similar. I was thinking more like a home made machine of significant substance driven by a small motor. A big motor to spin the wheel is not required for cutting with a saw or cutoff wheel. In both cases, the cutting mechanism and the wheel would be attached to your machine for the cutting operation. By making your own machine, you can make it to do exactly what you want. It doesn't need to be huge and take up your whole shop needlessly.
I'm glad that you have a lathe already. It gives me a bit more comfort that you are somewhat familiar with its use.
Rudeboy
Member
@Susquatch none of these photos really show where the cut is made exactly but basically the wheel is made up of 3 components. Inner rim, centre/face, and outer rim. The face is sandwiched between the two rims and then welded together, when changing the outer rims the weld needs to be cut in order to be able to get the rim off and make way for the new one. The first photo shows a few wheels with the new rims sitting on(unpolished) with the stack of original rims beside. the second photo shows the same thing but mounted on the tire machine with the grinder attatchment that I made. The grinder works well but because of how the tire machine locks it in place it can take a while to get the tool set in the right spot and the mounting of the wheel is much less accurate than a lathe Chuck so sometimes it can take 10-15 minutes just to get the wheel dialed in straight before I can begin the cut. Third photo shows what the wheel looks like with the rim cut off and the fourth with a new rim sitting on (before polish, drilling, welding etc)
Ok, I think I have the idea now.
Ya, you are gunna have trouble:
- Getting the tooling around the rim to cut the rim off.
- Achieving enough rigidity to part the rim.
- Dealing with the momentum of spinning parts when they separate.
You can best evaluate all this when you are able to try it with a wheel mounted on a lathe someplace.
Me? I'm even more locked into the idea of building yourself a custom "lathe like" machine with a short bed (maybe no bed), very low rpm, and an integrated grinding/cutting apparatus.
You might be able to buy an old lathe to use as a starting point. I'm picturing in my mind, a head (which could be an axle) mounted on some welded 1/2" plate that includes a bolt down adjustable bracket for a side grinder and cut-off wheel. The grinder is positioned and then the wheel is turned (just like on a lathe) at very low speed until the rim is cut off
Ya, you are gunna have trouble:
- Getting the tooling around the rim to cut the rim off.
- Achieving enough rigidity to part the rim.
- Dealing with the momentum of spinning parts when they separate.
You can best evaluate all this when you are able to try it with a wheel mounted on a lathe someplace.
Me? I'm even more locked into the idea of building yourself a custom "lathe like" machine with a short bed (maybe no bed), very low rpm, and an integrated grinding/cutting apparatus.
You might be able to buy an old lathe to use as a starting point. I'm picturing in my mind, a head (which could be an axle) mounted on some welded 1/2" plate that includes a bolt down adjustable bracket for a side grinder and cut-off wheel. The grinder is positioned and then the wheel is turned (just like on a lathe) at very low speed until the rim is cut off
It appears what you need is a vertical lathe, LOL. Being as I have never used one or been in a shop that has one, this might be a very remote possibility.
However you are useing a tire changer to do a similar job. No, I have not used a powered tire changer either, only old style. Is there a centre hole on/ in the rotating mounting plate? If so, does it stay on center when turning? If it does, or can be made to, make up an adapter plate, (maybe a brake drum/rotor), to mount the rim on. Once this is centered, fasten rims with wheel nuts/studs. Cut as before with grinder, seems the cutting part you have works. It is set up time that is the problem. Yes you will need an adapter for each different rim type, but you will be cutting at least 2 of each at a time. Looks like the rims in picture are all the same bolt spacing.
This is just an idea, thinking out side the box. Your 12 in. lathe can most likely turn adapter plates you would need.
What is the scary part when cutting the rim? If it is the grinder blade being pinched when nearing the end of cut, don't cut all the way through in a couple of spots, a hand held saw could be used to finish the job.
Anyway maybe a few ideas.
However you are useing a tire changer to do a similar job. No, I have not used a powered tire changer either, only old style. Is there a centre hole on/ in the rotating mounting plate? If so, does it stay on center when turning? If it does, or can be made to, make up an adapter plate, (maybe a brake drum/rotor), to mount the rim on. Once this is centered, fasten rims with wheel nuts/studs. Cut as before with grinder, seems the cutting part you have works. It is set up time that is the problem. Yes you will need an adapter for each different rim type, but you will be cutting at least 2 of each at a time. Looks like the rims in picture are all the same bolt spacing.
This is just an idea, thinking out side the box. Your 12 in. lathe can most likely turn adapter plates you would need.
What is the scary part when cutting the rim? If it is the grinder blade being pinched when nearing the end of cut, don't cut all the way through in a couple of spots, a hand held saw could be used to finish the job.
Anyway maybe a few ideas.
Rudeboy
Member
@Susquatch the rims remain solid on the face of the wheel and need to be hammered off once the weld is cut due to the precise fit so there’s not much worry about the old rim flying off or separating when the cut is finished. I often have to either pry the old ones off with a pry bar or knock them off with a dead blow after it’s split. The other issue with the cutoff wheel is it doesn’t allow me to clean up the mating surface afterwards and I have to end up using a flap wheel to clean the remaining weld off which isn’t as precise as I like. Another process I forgot about is that sometimes I need to open up the centre hole on the new rims because I ordered them with an undersized bore or no bore at all.
@Bandit the table on my current tire machine isn’t level so no matter what I do I’ll never get a wheel in straight no matter what adapters I make. The other issue is that when you lock in the height for the cutting tool it automatically lifts the blade a few mm which is hard to calculate and it ends up being more of an eyeball cut rather than something precise. It’s pretty crucial where the cut is made to not damage the centre while still cutting away the rim and once I’ve made the cut it’s hard to go a blade width over and still cut without blade deflection. And as far as what’s scary I just don’t love the speed that carbide wood cutting blade is spinning with no guard while cutting aluminum. I have to hold the rotation pedal down with a broom handle to keep my legs out of the line of fire. Also makes an insane mess of the shop with the chips flying like that
@Bandit the table on my current tire machine isn’t level so no matter what I do I’ll never get a wheel in straight no matter what adapters I make. The other issue is that when you lock in the height for the cutting tool it automatically lifts the blade a few mm which is hard to calculate and it ends up being more of an eyeball cut rather than something precise. It’s pretty crucial where the cut is made to not damage the centre while still cutting away the rim and once I’ve made the cut it’s hard to go a blade width over and still cut without blade deflection. And as far as what’s scary I just don’t love the speed that carbide wood cutting blade is spinning with no guard while cutting aluminum. I have to hold the rotation pedal down with a broom handle to keep my legs out of the line of fire. Also makes an insane mess of the shop with the chips flying like that
Yup, more and more it sounds like you need to design and build a custom machine. Should cost a whole lot less than an 18 inch lathe and take up a whole lot less space too.
This is starting to sound like you need to do some building as per Susquatch, while a vertical lathe, a large mill, or perhaps a radical arm drill press would do this job very well, as well as a large swing lathe, they are all going to need some room.
We know from what you are doing now, that a powered tire changer will kind of "do the job". And yes them aluminum slivers are sharp and hurt, been there, not doing it again. Them things seem much worse then steel.
Maybe a welding rotator set up could be done up. At the least I would be putting up some shields/curtains to help control chips and a brick to put on the pedal , with a remote power switch on the tire changer.
Machine could be vertical or horizontal, slow turning a big old truck axle mounted in a couple of self aligning bearings, reduction box, 1/2-1hp motor. Along Susquatch's note above. Cutter bits, mounted for basic machining of welds and or bores.
Do you have a welder? Sounds like aluminum welding anyway.
We know from what you are doing now, that a powered tire changer will kind of "do the job". And yes them aluminum slivers are sharp and hurt, been there, not doing it again. Them things seem much worse then steel.
Maybe a welding rotator set up could be done up. At the least I would be putting up some shields/curtains to help control chips and a brick to put on the pedal , with a remote power switch on the tire changer.
Machine could be vertical or horizontal, slow turning a big old truck axle mounted in a couple of self aligning bearings, reduction box, 1/2-1hp motor. Along Susquatch's note above. Cutter bits, mounted for basic machining of welds and or bores.
Do you have a welder? Sounds like aluminum welding anyway.
Rudeboy
Member
I don’t really have the time or energy to build anything to do this job but hell if any of you want to take a crack at making something for some side cash I could be keen however I do truely think I’ll need a big lathe to do everything I need. I just finished checking out that combo unit and it looks promising. I was able to get a wheel in the current Chuck and spin it up, slowest speed seems perfect and it just fits the 14” wheel. I think with a different Chuck and some custom tooling for the parting tool it could work perfect for my application. The only wonder is if it will have enough torque for the job. It was getting late so we weren’t able to actually cut anything but the seller seems willing to let me come back another day to see if it has enough grunt to part some rims. It’s not ideal but it’s quite small and if the price is right it would fit nicely where my drill press currently lives and I wouldn’t have to worry about selling the other lathe.
Rudeboy
Member
Definitely would work and could probably work to bore the rims as well
How about this:
canadianhobbymetalworkers.com
Nice Lathe
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/876983257071242/?mibextid=dXMIcH
Well, I think you have found an answer, looks like could be slowed down a bit more with an accessory pulley, cut on far side of rim so you can see what your doing, (if cutting on inside of rim) run in reverse. Might be able to put a riser block on head stock for bigger diameter rim, not sure about that with the combined milling head.
Has the small mill you were looking for too. Don't wait too long on it as it seems for me if I find something I like/ could use, it will be gone if I ho and hum about it very long.
I did not know these units had a larger swing like this. Yes thestelster that unit would work me thinks, appears a bit larger then I need!
Has the small mill you were looking for too. Don't wait too long on it as it seems for me if I find something I like/ could use, it will be gone if I ho and hum about it very long.
I did not know these units had a larger swing like this. Yes thestelster that unit would work me thinks, appears a bit larger then I need!
Rudeboy
Member
The more I think about it the more I think a mill could fit my needs better as @YotaBota mentioned. With a large 3 jaw Chuck that could grip the outside of the rim on a rotary table I could accurately and slowly cut the rims off as well as open the bores on new rims. Anybody have a suggestion on where I could get a rotary table and Chuck that big?