Mazda 6 doesn't like Canadian winters

[Elektrishun]

This is the 3rd winter where I have been trying to sort out my son's 2010 Mazda 6 "fail to start" issues. What I know so far:
- Starts perfect up until temperature drops to around -25 Celsius
- 2 year old battery tests good
- Alternator tests good
- Terminals are clean
- No parasitic amp draw found
- No other obvious issues related to starting
- Block heater was found to be unplugged from block but is now plugged in and tested working but still fails to start after sitting for a couple of days
- Anti-freeze is good

Known factors that likely contribute to cold starting issues:
- The car will sit without being driven for longer periods of time in the winter (sitting idle in the cold saps some of the starting energy).
- When my son does drive the car it is mostly short trips around the city (not enough to charge the battery).
- the car has a lot of electronic sensors and accessories that add extra load when starting.

We decided the next step was either:
- a battery with higher CCA and reserve
- or an onboard charger/maintainer.

Last time the car failed to start I pulled the battery, charged it up, did a load test/voltage drop test, put it back in, and as usual it started without issue. The car was still sitting in the cold with the block heater plugged in so the only thing that changed was charging the battery. We decided to get a NOCO 2D Genius on-board charger/maintainer.

Checked online and the nearest Canadian Tire had 16...until I got to the store. Now they had zero in stock. I talked to someone at Customer Service about checking the other stores. While they checked another staff member found 1 in the store. Back on track.

Installed the charger/maintainer today (bottom right of image). The most time consuming part was planning and executing the layout which included a short block heater extension cord with multiple outlets. I have it set-up so that the Mazda's block heater cord and NOCO charger cord both plug into the block heater extension cord which is neatly tucked in under the hood out of harms way. The block heater extension cord male end runs out through the lower front grill in the same place where the block heater cord used to exit. Now my son only has to plug-in one cord to power both devices. As well, if he forgets to unplug before driving away he will likely damage the single block heater extension cord end.

This year winter came earlier than usual. I am certain there will be plenty of extreme cold weather yet to come. Before the snow melts we will find out if the charger/maintainer solves the starting issues.

Lastly, clearly some cars are not designed with Canadian winters in mind. My wife owned a Honda Prelude back in the early 90's. Once the Honda was sold it has been all Chevs and Fords. All of them have been good winter starting vehicles when proper maintenance is included. The Mazda is my first experience playing mechanic on an import (the 2nd is my daughter's older Hyundai Tucson which has been a great all around vehicle). There are clues that some of these cars are not built for Canadian winters.

Clue #1 - the 2010 Mazda doesn't even mention a block heater in their owner's manual. The Canadian dealerships installed them. Compare that to my wife's 2009 Chev Uplander that not only mentions a block heater but that there is a temperature switch in the circuit that closes at -19 Celsius. Designed for cold weather? Yep.

Clue #2 - after searching online for a $200 battery with higher CCA all I could find that "fits" this Mazda is 600 CCA with a reserve of 95. The OEM is 590 CCA with a reserve of 90. I compared that to a 2010 Ford Taurus SE where I found batteries with 850 CCA with a reserve of 130-150 (comparing Mazda's 3.7L V6 to Ford's 3.5L V6). Even the 3.8L V6 Uplander has options up to 850 CCA (not sure what battery is currently installed).

Nonetheless, once the engine fires up I think the Mazda 6 is a great car and a lot of fun to drive.

 

[Susquatch]

- 2 year old battery tests good

Just cuz it tests good doesn't mean it is good.

You have had several back to back, successful and unsuccessful starts. How does the starting rpm compare for each?

Also, you can buy Battery warmers.

Lastly, NEVER UNDERESTIMATE how poor your battery connection, starter connections, and grounds might be.

 

[TorontoBuilder]

This is the 3rd winter where I have been trying to sort out my son's 2010 Mazda 6 "fail to start" issues. What I know so far:
- Starts perfect up until temperature drops to around -25 Celsius
- 2 year old battery tests good
- Alternator tests good
- Terminals are clean
- No parasitic amp draw found
- No other obvious issues related to starting
- Block heater was found to be unplugged from block but is now plugged in and tested working but still fails to start after sitting for a couple of days
- Anti-freeze is good

Known factors that likely contribute to cold starting issues:
- The car will sit without being driven for longer periods of time in the winter (sitting idle in the cold saps some of the starting energy).
- When my son does drive the car it is mostly short trips around the city (not enough to charge the battery).
- the car has a lot of electronic sensors and accessories that add extra load when starting.

We decided the next step was either:
- a battery with higher CCA and reserve
- or an onboard charger/maintainer.

Last time the car failed to start I pulled the battery, charged it up, did a load test/voltage drop test, put it back in, and as usual it started without issue. The car was still sitting in the cold with the block heater plugged in so the only thing that changed was charging the battery. We decided to get a NOCO 2D Genius on-board charger/maintainer.

Checked online and the nearest Canadian Tire had 16...until I got to the store. Now they had zero in stock. I talked to someone at Customer Service about checking the other stores. While they checked another staff member found 1 in the store. Back on track.

Installed the charger/maintainer today (bottom right of image). The most time consuming part was planning and executing the layout which included a short block heater extension cord with multiple outlets. I have it set-up so that the Mazda's block heater cord and NOCO charger cord both plug into the block heater extension cord which is neatly tucked in under the hood out of harms way. The block heater extension cord male end runs out through the lower front grill in the same place where the block heater cord used to exit. Now my son only has to plug-in one cord to power both devices. As well, if he forgets to unplug before driving away he will likely damage the single block heater extension cord end.

View attachment 56204

This year winter came earlier than usual. I am certain there will be plenty of extreme cold weather yet to come. Before the snow melts we will find out if the charger/maintainer solves the starting issues.

Lastly, clearly some cars are not designed with Canadian winters in mind. My wife owned a Honda Prelude back in the early 90's. Once the Honda was sold it has been all Chevs and Fords. All of them have been good winter starting vehicles when proper maintenance is included. The Mazda is my first experience playing mechanic on an import (the 2nd is my daughter's older Hyundai Tucson which has been a great all around vehicle). There are clues that some of these cars are not built for Canadian winters.

Clue #1 - the 2010 Mazda doesn't even mention a block heater in their owner's manual. The Canadian dealerships installed them. Compare that to my wife's 2009 Chev Uplander that not only mentions a block heater but that there is a temperature switch in the circuit that closes at -19 Celsius. Designed for cold weather? Yep.

Clue #2 - after searching online for a $200 battery with higher CCA all I could find that "fits" this Mazda is 600 CCA with a reserve of 95. The OEM is 590 CCA with a reserve of 90. I compared that to a 2010 Ford Taurus SE where I found batteries with 850 CCA with a reserve of 130-150 (comparing Mazda's 3.7L V6 to Ford's 3.5L V6). Even the 3.8L V6 Uplander has options up to 850 CCA (not sure what battery is currently installed).

Nonetheless, once the engine fires up I think the Mazda 6 is a great car and a lot of fun to drive.

Now this is where I'd park this around Jane and Finch for a coupe days

 

[Darren]

Sounds like a no crank/no start ?

If so, voltage drop test all grounds during cold crank, use thermal imager for hot ground points. If I recall, there's a trans to body ground under the battery tray thats problematic. If the ground is bad you'll get poor cranking as well as reduced current flow to the battery. These problems can be minor, but together, along with cold weather and you have a no start.

 

[Perry]

As Susquatch said, you could add a battery blanket. Also get a heavier gauge extension cord to plug your block heater into. Make sure the connections on the cord are clean.

They use to make those inline (water) heaters back in the day. Those always worked a charm.

Double check you are using the correct engine oil. Good luck.

 

[Elektrishun]

Just cuz it tests good doesn't mean it is good.

You have had several back to back, successful and unsuccessful starts. How does the starting rpm compare for each?

Also, you can buy Battery warmers.

Lastly, NEVER UNDERESTIMATE how poor your battery connection, starter connections, and grounds might be.

When I test a battery I usually do two tests; in the vehicle with an Innova OBDII reader and out of the vehicle with a traditional load tester along with a Volt meter to watch the voltage as it drops and recovers.

Unless these tests are insufficient the battery is good.

 

[Elektrishun]

Sounds like a no crank/no start ?

If so, voltage drop test all grounds during cold crank, use thermal imager for hot ground points. If I recall, there's a trans to body ground under the battery tray thats problematic. If the ground is bad you'll get poor cranking as well as reduced current flow to the battery. These problems can be minor, but together, along with cold weather and you have a no start.

I have gone over the grounds to make sure they are clean and solidly connected...a couple times.
I may have missed something but I don't think the electrical connections are an issue.

 

[Elektrishun]

As Susquatch said, you could add a battery blanket. Also get a heavier gauge extension cord to plug your block heater into. Make sure the connections on the cord are clean.

They use to make those inline (water) heaters back in the day. Those always worked a charm.

Double check you are using the correct engine oil. Good luck.

Put a brand new blocked heater cord end on today. Checked the resistance to be 32 ohms through the prongs. Draws about 3.5 amps when plugged in. 120V x 3.5A = 420 Watts. 420W is about right for a block heater for this vehicle.

The block heater with old end tested about the same. The only reason I replaced it was I wanted to reroute the cord and that required opening the cord end. Too much corrosion inside to bother cleaning and reusing so I just replaced it.

 

[Elektrishun]

I really think it boils down to this vehicle is not designed for winters in Saskatchewan.
The vehicle puts a high load on the battery to start which it can handle for all but the coldest days.

As the temperature drops and car is seldom driven the battery is not able to maintain enough charge to start.

If there were an option for a battery with higher CCA and greater reserve capacity (and likely an alternator to match) I believe I wouldn't need the onboard charger.

 

[Darren]

I have gone over the grounds to make sure they are clean and solidly connected...a couple times.
I may have missed something but I don't think the electrical connections are an issue.

A voltage drop test during cold crank on both the ground side and the positive side is quick and easy to do and will definitively prove out where the problem is. A new fully charged battery or an onboard charger will mask the problem , until it doesn't. I see issues exactly like this in my shop fairly often, and 90% of the time its a bad connection, which leads to a dead battery, which freezes. If you put a new battery in, it'll be good for a bit, but eventually dies prematurely.

That said, my mother drives less than 200kms per year. Her car has an onboard Noco charger which has saved me dozens of trips to her house, 30 mins each way.

 

[Elektrishun]

A voltage drop test during cold crank on both the ground side and the positive side is quick and easy to do and will definitively prove out where the problem is. A new fully charged battery or an onboard charger will mask the problem , until it doesn't. I see issues exactly like this in my shop fairly often, and 90% of the time its a bad connection, which leads to a dead battery, which freezes. If you put a new battery in, it'll be good for a bit, but eventually dies prematurely.

That said, my mother drives less than 200kms per year. Her car has an onboard Noco charger which has saved me dozens of trips to her house, 30 mins each way.

I appreciate the feedback Darren.

I think that test is worth trying.

 

[Darren]

There's dozens of vids and stuff on voltage drop testing, and are worth watching. On you dvom, set to 20v scale, one lead on center of the battery post, other one the engine block at a clean location. Have an assistant crank it, I like to see less than 1v on the meter. If more, attach a jumper cable from neg post to block and repeat test. If the drop is reduced, you have a ground problem, which is usually the case because they put grounds in stupid spots that corrode. Sometimes I will add an additional ground cable to prevent future problems.

 

[Elektrishun]

There's dozens of vids and stuff on voltage drop testing, and are worth watching. On you dvom, set to 20v scale, one lead on center of the battery post, other one the engine block at a clean location. Have an assistant crank it, I like to see less than 1v on the meter. If more, attach a jumper cable from neg post to block and repeat test. If the drop is reduced, you have a ground problem, which is usually the case because they put grounds in stupid spots that corrode. Sometimes I will add an additional ground cable to prevent future problems.

Watched this video but I will check out some more:

 

[PeterT]

I've been gong through the exact same thing on my sons truck. Cold winter + infrequent use + vampire draw somewhere = a new battery every 2 years. I kicked around the idea of a dashboard solar charger so it wasn't wall outlet/cord dependent. But with more research & chatting with auto techs, that can also have some electrical considerations. So couple weeks ago I bought the NOCO Genius 2D on sale for $49 (Amazon). It was a piece of cake to install even though there were not many options without splicing or extending lines. I attached the included clip to a plastic plate & attached the assembly with 2"x4" velcro so its easily removable. There was no good place to drive a screw in, but this will hold.

After charging it overnight with my C-TEK which does a bit of diagnostics & conditioning, it went from I think 10.8? to mid-11v but was indicating battery still OK. Then put the NOCO on. It did its blinky lights routine as per instructions, next day measured 12.4. Starting was no-problemo. I'm going to monitor this install & will probably get one for my own (Mazda) vehicle. Also infrequent use issue but more modern power suckers. I've had a couple batteries replaced on warranty already. So far I'm a fan.

 

[Darren]

The underhood chargers do have their place, and i've recommended and installed a lot of them. They are good for vehicles that are used infrequently. All newer cars have some amount of draw. 30ish mA is usually acceptable, but on a volvo, I have seen 10x that be considered acceptable. Those cars can't sit for too long without killing batts.

 

[Darren]

Watched this video but I will check out some more:

That's a good general overview, however, he's in a warm shop and that engine is cranking like crazy. So his values are different than what you'd see in a cold climate, no crank situation. His statement about different allowable values for the positive and negative side is incorrect in my opinion. Ideally they would be the same and less than 0.5v. In colder weather, higher amp draw during cranking, you'll see slightly higher voltage drops.

I see at the end he used a thermal camera. Thats my go to when i have a no crank with a battery above 12.5v. You'll usually see the problem as fast as he shows it.

 

[slow-poke]

Many years ago I had a sequence of three Mazdas; GLC, 323 and RX7. No problem starting any of them in Winnipeg. My mom has a Honda Fit and the battery is tiny not much bigger than a motorcycle battery, and completely unfit for Winnipeg winters. Sounds like there is either a poor connection somewhere or the alternator is on the fritz. What is the battery voltage at idle?

Most alternators are in the ballpark of 100A. Offering a boost to someone with the car running risks damaging the diodes in the alternator. The boost obviously works better with the engine running but you can easily exceed the diode rating, I killed an alternator boosting someone once. The alternator from that point was not producing clean DC anymore and also killed my battery. If I boost someone now, I connect up, run the boost car for a few minutes at high idle, then shut off and then do the boost start.

 

[6.5 Fan]

My new Hyundai Santa Cruz had to go to the dealer last week due to possible trans issue, would pick up speed but very slowly and lose speed on hills. Turns out the intercooler was frozen up. Hmm, I asked what the did to prevent this from happening again, Park it in a garage. Bullcrap, our tractors stay in the heated building, the cows take priority as they are income.
If this happens again i will likely trade it off on a vehicle that can drive in snow.

 

[Elektrishun]

My new Hyundai Santa Cruz had to go to the dealer last week due to possible trans issue, would pick up speed but very slowly and lose speed on hills. Turns out the intercooler was frozen up. Hmm, I asked what the did to prevent this from happening again, Park it in a garage. Bullcrap, our tractors stay in the heated building, the cows take priority as they are income.
If this happens again i will likely trade it off on a vehicle that can drive in snow.

I worked with a guy who said his brand new Tucson (a few years old by now) has spent more time in the dealership shop than on his driveway.

What happened to the newer Hyundai's? I hear nothing but horror stories. The last Hyundai story I read was that the engine compartment can catch fire and there was a massive recall:

Consumer Alert: Kia and Hyundai Issue Recalls for 3.3M Vehicles, Advise Owners to Park Outside | NHTSA

Recall for 3.3 million Kia and Hyundai vehicles issued to park outside for fire risk due to an electrical short from a brake fluid leak.

www.nhtsa.gov

Probably a good idea you don't park it indoors.

My daughter has a high mileage 2005 Hyundai - thanks Pandemic. It's her first car and first winter with it. Solid as a rock so far. I've had to do some minor repairs and for a backyard mechanic it has been easy to work on.

 

[Elektrishun]

Many years ago I had a sequence of three Mazdas; GLC, 323 and RX7. No problem starting any of them in Winnipeg. My mom has a Honda Fit and the battery is tiny not much bigger than a motorcycle battery, and completely unfit for Winnipeg winters. Sounds like there is either a poor connection somewhere or the alternator is on the fritz. What is the battery voltage at idle?

Most alternators are in the ballpark of 100A. Offering a boost to someone with the car running risks damaging the diodes in the alternator. The boost obviously works better with the engine running but you can easily exceed the diode rating, I killed an alternator boosting someone once. The alternator from that point was not producing clean DC anymore and also killed my battery. If I boost someone now, I connect up, run the boost car for a few minutes at high idle, then shut off and then do the boost start.

Years ago my wife had an '88 Honda Prelude that was a great winter car. But that car is a lot older and many electronic modules/ sensors fewer than my son's 2010 Mazda 6.

I am not saying that all imports that are designed without block heaters in mind won't perform well in cold weather. BUT I am suggesting that the overall design of this particular vehicle MIGHT have a charging/starting system that can't handle really cold winter conditions.

Darren's suggestion of the voltage drop test is my next step.