Looking at new lathe -- Opinions and Options

[kevin.decelles]

I'm in the early stages of looking for a new lathe, with new meaning new.

I'm not into the CNC scene (not on the lathe) and enjoy the process of manual lathe work -- this is my relaxation, not my day-job. As for a budget, 8K would be my max. From what I've seen, a full on 14x40 blows past that pretty quick, so I've been looking at the 12x36 etc. Modern Tool has one labelled as C0636Ax1000 (which they classify as a 14x40), but some early reviews say this is more comparable to the Precision Mathews 13x40gt.

Switching to VFD at a later date is well within my wheelhouse and I have a spacious shop so space is not an issue.

I love old equipment and using old vintage equipment -- my two existing lates are a Von Wyck 15x40 (circa 1903) , and a Sebastian (circa 1910) which is more of a bench top. There are definitely limitations to this equipment (low speeds = no carbide = limits) so I'm looking to expand the shop. Waiting for good-used-equipment is painful, given that I compete with the likes of all of you to reply to ads.


Ok, the questions to get things going.....(all answers directed at new equipment)

What are my options in Calgary? (Modern / Busy Bee / Other?)
Is Busy Bee really an option? (My mills are from there, no real issues with the machine.... service is sketchy)
What about mail-order (Grizzly / Precision Mathews / Eisen Machinery / Other?)
Is importing from USA a sane venture?
Regarding the Modern C0636Ax1000 -- any opinions good or bad? (assume DRO / taper attachment etc).
Any opinions on lease-to-own outside the obvious of paying interest? Any gotchas there?
Overview of Modern Tool from a sales/support perspective? Our meet-up in November was my first visit....

 

[Janger]

Kevin I have the C0636Ax1000. I like it. Come try if you want. I found it used. The problem I see with the smaller lathes from craftex and others is the gear changing - frequent and very fussy.

 

[Dabbler]

So... I've been looking at Modern and Precision Matthews. I've not been impressed by the biggest Busy Bee lathe (I'd love to hear your opinion!)...

I think the PM and Eisen may be superior to Modern, but that is only the numbers, and not personal experience. Modern wanted me to buy the BL1340 used, saying it would be a better purchase than the C0636A1000. (!!)

I'm trying to buy a LeBlond 15X60 from a guy but the talks are going glacially slow!

I'm still keeping Modern in mind, but am also watching the used market!

- we seem to both be interested in similar lathes...

 

[PeterT]

I'm pretty sure the C0636A is their own 'Modern' line from China. They have direct factory connections, specify certain features & upgrades, offer replacement parts, local delivery etc. I think its a decent machine, the thing is all imports have their warts & wrinkles IMO. You will probably find a few other very similar ones from other vendors, but you have to figure the all-in costs, particularly if coming from USA & they often package them differently (or not) in terms of DRO, taper attachment, chucks, stand, etc. All that costs money. Personally I cant see an economic case with say a Grizzly. It might be similar enough, but now your support lifeline is far away. KBC offers similar ones too +/- cost FOB Vancouver, but I hear there is nothing to see in the showroom. King in Eastern Canada has both Taiwan & China type models, but you are dealing with disinterested folks from my personal experience. Personally I think Modern is great to deal with. And yes things can go wrong with machines. Get Modern to email you the full manual so you have an idea of parts & functionality (I may still have a copy).

The 1340GT is from Taiwan, allegedly a little cleaner around the edges, but its all about what you want & need. China vs Taiwan was a bigger gap 10 years ago, but I think the gap is closing. At least one person on our forum had a good import experience with PM. Some of PM's other lathes & mills are from China & you will recognize similarities. (Some people think all PM's are from Taiwan, not true).
http://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/pm-1340gt/
This guy tricked out a 1340 to an insane level. Anyway shows you some of the innards. There is also a PM subforum on that website.
https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/pm1340-the-best-jacobs-full-custom-edition.58507/

 

[PeterT]

Another one
http://www.moderntool.com/products/modern-14-swing-40-between-centers-ml-1440v-ml-1440vs-lathe/

And I don't recall seeing this one recently
http://www.moderntool.com/products/modern-14-swing-40-between-centers-ml-1440v-ml-1440vs-lathe-2/

Best you pay them a visit. Seems to me the web site models might be a bit different than what's on the floor, at least I know that for sure re the GH 1440W (bigger yet).

 

[kylemp]

If you just can't wait then the precision Matthews or the machines from kbc or enco are probably the way to go. If you CAN wait, or go back in time, try and find one like the 16x40 I just sold a month or so ago.. it was Spanish and a HEAVY lathe.. nothing like the 14x40s you see for sale new.
Anything heavy and a bit older or made by a manufacturer of large machines is your best bet in my opinion. Maybe you can find a master 2500 or something for a reasonable price.
As far as after sale service - I wouldn't count on places like kms or busy bee. They sell them and getting parts is like pulling teeth. Modern has good support but as far as I know you'll pay for it. The same is true with colchester from my experience.. one shaft with a gear on it was going to run me 2600usd from them if I recall correctly. In all likelihood you'll want to either just be able to buy the parts new or used and put them on yourself if you need to.

 

[Dabbler]

One of the things favouring the PM is the 2" spindle bore for some models. I've always had a great relationship with Modertn tool - they guys seem to go out of their way to be helpful! I'm keeping in touch to see what they get in used. I might even buy one of their new ones if I can save enough.

I agree with Kyle bigger and heavier is better! (the timing was wrong for me or I might have tried to buy Kyle's lathe)

 

[kevin.decelles]

Great info -- exactly what I was looking for

@Janger I'll take u up on the offer to see your lathe again

@PeterT the quote from modern on those other 14x40s was north or 11k, more than I can justify

@kylemp I was in the fence between new and used. Some great machines out there, but some real worm crap too, too much money for the risk imho. My Von wyck was a risk, but then again it would have looked good as a piece of art in my living room if it hadn't worked

Thx again



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[Alexander]

Modern tool does have Lease One Financial. It is a no strings attached rent to own program. If you are starting your own business you can use the lease payment as tax deduction. The buy out at the end is only about %5 and interest is really low. It is a better option than buying a machine to a set budget. Machining is hard but with the right machine it is easier.

 

[kevin.decelles]

I already started a dialog with them, to get an idea of options . Budget is budget though, whether it is lump sum or monthly. Either way , this makes me no revenue ..... it is the same to me as buying a boat or a new truck. Without an avenue to write it off u need to be at peace with the total

I do have a trade name registered though, perhaps I'll hang out my shingle and machine parts for Von wyck lathes...... I see years of net losses ahead to write off against




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[John Conroy]

I was in Modern's show room recently and took some pictures of the C036A 14 X 40. This model has had some upgrade in the past year and now comes with a 2" spindle bore like the PM machines as well as D1-5 chuck mounting instead of the 1.5" spindle bore and D1-4 of the plevious model. It also comes with a taper attachment, QCTP and a factory installed DRO. The price is better than the similar PM machine if you factor in the taper attachment. It looks like a very nice machine to me.

 

[PeterT]

@PeterT the quote from modern on those other 14x40s was north or 11k, more than I can justify
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Sorry, I missed your 8K ceiling target. ~Mar-2017 Modern quoted on : C0636A = $7495 and GH 1440W = $12,974, both comparably outfitted with similar stand, DRO & chucks. Prices do fluctuate but unless the currency is working in favor, yes that might eliminate the other machines.

 

[PeterT]

... C036A 14 X 40. This model has had some upgrade in the past year and now comes with a 2" spindle bore like the PM machines as well as D1-5 chuck mounting instead of the 1.5" spindle bore and D1-4

Good point John. This model has changed from the time spec sheet was given to me.
PRO: bigger spindle bore = accommodates larger diameter through stock = more useful
CON: (person dependent) if you happen to have inventory D1-4 3J/4J chucks, collet chuck, faceplate etc. that either has to be converted (if it can) or sell to replicate, then it might figure into the $$ picture. OTOH if the new rotating tooling that comes with lathe meets your needs, not as big a factor.

 

[kevin.decelles]

They quoted me the same price yesterday , same spec d1-4


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[PeterT]

If the D1-4 vs. 5 is an issue maybe check with them. Could be a boo-boo. I know for the longest time (maybe even still?) the web page listed a different (bigger) model for the GH 1440W then what was on the floor.

 

[John Conroy]

You're right Peter, their web site is showing old product. Even the manual the sales guy emailed me Is for the old machine. Not sure why they don't update it.

 

[Tom Kitta]

Given "new" and a budget of $8000 fro 14x40 I would say you will be forced to buy new Chinese or Taiwanese machine.

For smaller machines you could try Busy Bee - but they only have one old 14x40 for around $6000 which I am not sure is worth that. Their max is probably 12x36 bench machine. Similar for KMS - except you get a King Canada 12x36.

For other new options from China / Taiwan you can look on the internet - say eBay (or even Amazon (!)) Grizzly is an option but its not "cheap" - at least you get excellent parts support.

My view is that a lot of machines are made in the same factory and painted in different colours. If I could I would go for Taiwanese over Chinese most of the time.

I personally try to go for used machines - but that requires a lot of experience and even then is a bit of a lottery - through some people run into issues with brand new stuff as well - usually bigger brand new stuff.

 

[Dabbler]

I talked to Modern Tool today on another matter. During the discussion I found out that their 1440 is, in fact $7800, and they are getting a shipment in at that price. The spindle has 2" clear, and it does have D1-5 camlock. It comes with a 4 jaw and 3 jaw and taper attachment... For me, the metric/imperial threading on the QC gearbox makes it very attractive!

At that price, it isn't worth shipping a sight-unseen PM 14".

 

[Tom Kitta]

https://www.amazon.com/Bolton-Tools...F8&qid=1519187307&sr=8-4&keywords=lathe+14x40

There - save a $1000 for another clone - you need to pick it up at the border. Compare what you get with each company but my feeling is you probably get here more for less $$$.

Maybe you can get even better deal if you look but you need to pick it up at the border. As usual it takes minutes to beat local price.

 

[John Conroy]

That one doesn't come with a taper attachment or a DRO like the Modern Tool machine so the price is not much better. I think, in this case, Modern has the best deal.