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King Mill Drill-$2500 - North Bay area

jcdammeyer

John
Premium Member
I bought mine from House of Tools back in 2006. Equivalent to the Grizzly Tools G3616 it has the rotating table but not the horizontal mill features. Both the X and the upper head are shorter than the G3617. I bought this because I didn't have space for the bigger one.
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Now granted this is back in 2006 and now that's about $4826 accounting for inflation. Or with taxes about 5400. IIRC, the larger one was about $3900 or about $5868 which with taxes is almost $6600.

To put that into perspective the equivalent Grizzly mill is now $8275 US w/o shipping.

Back then I said to a friend, who would always buy a new vehicle every 3 to 5 years, just use the vehicle for 1 to 2 more years and set aside what you would have made in payments for those two years.

So let's do the math now. A new Ford F150 can run $65,000 without taxes and possible other options. That works out to $1256 per month at 6% interest. Or over 12 months $15,072.

I drove a beat up Jeep Cherokee nursing it for two years longer than I normally would have kept it. Yes, I could have enjoyed a new vehicle during that time. But instead I bought a brand new mill.

Yes, everyone loves a deal and there are some out there. But if you are willing to buy a new car or even a used one with payments it's quite possible to justify a new machine with a warranty.

Oh and in his case he always bought the vehicle with cash he had saved. So let's look again at today.

Pull out $15,000 from the $65,000 savings account. That leaves $50,000 earning an investment of 5% perhaps? Or more if you go risky.
Now every month put $1000 into the account that earns 5% and at the end of the year you have pretty well your $65K back. So the mill cost you $12,000 instead of $15,000. Now go buy the vehicle.
 

Dabbler

ersatz engineer
If you don't think an $8000 mill for $2200 is a steal, then my point is made.

Just because we all find unicorns occasionally doesn't mean everything needs to be sold for 50% of what it's worth or less

You didn't read my post carefully, and simply want to win an argument. HOWEVER there are a lot of guys here that would like to know the real price they should be paying for a used machine, not some hyper inflated flipper price. My illustration disproved your 80% premise. No mill, even completely unused after 10 years, should sell for 80% of new. The 8000$ mill I highlighted had a true, fair market value of 3000$ at that time. The accountant, Modern tool, and I agree on it. Yes I got it for 2200$, after I told them it was worth 3000$. So I got an 800$ discount. One that the seller was willing to give. I did not steal it.

I'm not sure why you insist that people should consider paying above market price for an abused machine. I agree anyone is fully free to ask anything they want, even above market price if it turns their crank. But I'd never advise someone to pay that.

As for buyer or seller, My price is the same. Gurpreet had me price out 20 of his machines, 6 of which were not selling. I gave him the pricing and the rationale, and he was very happy with the returns.
 

Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
Nobody calls the guy selling the MyFord lathe for $1300 and says "excuse me sir, I will give you $4000 instead because that is a fair deal for you"

Errrr.... Actually, I have done that once in a while. I know others on here have too. I like a good deal as much as anyone, but I don't like to take advantage of people either. The most obvious is an old lady selling her deceased husbands stuff. If I think it's worth more than she is asking I'll tell her that. The slimy guy that is trying to skin me gets the opposite treatment.

When I see a deal that's bad for me, I try to educate the seller with data from similar sales. If I see a deal that's just a deal, I jump on it.

But I think we are getting lost a bit here. My only point is that new is only new till its sold. The minute you take it home it loses 20 to 30%. I'm not gunna pay more for it. Plain and simple.

I do know there are a few who would. We see those deals from time to time. I've even seen people pay more than new. And that's ok with me if they do. But I'm not gunna join them. I'm also not ever gunna recommend that anyone else do it either.

We can agree to disagree on that.
 

Jswain

Joe
Errrr.... Actually, I have done that once in a while. I know others on here have too. I like a good deal as much as anyone, but I don't like to take advantage of people either. The most obvious is an old lady selling her deceased husbands stuff. If I think it's worth more than she is asking I'll tell her that. The slimy guy that is trying to skin me gets the opposite treatment.

When I see a deal that's bad for me, I try to educate the seller with data from similar sales. If I see a deal that's just a deal, I jump on it.

But I think we are getting lost a bit here. My only point is that new is only new till its sold. The minute you take it home it loses 20 to 30%. I'm not gunna pay more for it. Plain and simple.

I do know there are a few who would. We see those deals from time to time. I've even seen people pay more than new. And that's ok with me if they do. But I'm not gunna join them. I'm also not ever gunna recommend that anyone else do it either.

We can agree to disagree.
$2500 for that mill package is 20% off in Ontario from the new price. If you bartered down to $2000 it would be 44% off.
 

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Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
$2500 for that mill package is 20% off in Ontario from the new price. If you bartered down to $2000 it would be 44% off.

When I say 20 - 30, I mean no tax included and price at the time of original sale - not vs the price today.

Also, as Dabbler has already pointed out, that machine has problems. So it's worth even less.

One of the things I liked most about this forum was the help I got very early on with understanding the value proposition for used machinery.

It's difficult for me to understand why you feel differently about this particular value proposition especially since you are not interested in buying it.

I don't suppose you are the seller..... Now that would be funny!

I'm thinking one of the reasons we are giving you a hard time is because you are running contrary to the advice we give everyone else on such things. But you don't have to take that advice. You can pay whatever you want.
 

jcdammeyer

John
Premium Member
I'm pretty sure the $2500 I paid for my South Bend, even with the wear on the ways was a reasonable price. However, back in 1942 I'm pretty sure the new price of it was way less than that.

I believe the market both new and used determines the price. A barely used mill like my friends G3617 type bought for probably about $4K is now $12K Cdn. So should he sell it for 50% of his purchased price ($2K) or 50% of the current market price ($6K)?
 

Jswain

Joe
When I say 20 - 30, I mean no tax included and price at the time of original sale - not vs the price today.

Also, as Dabbler has already pointed out, that machine has problems. So it's worth even less.

One of the things I liked most about this forum was the help I got very early on with understanding the value proposition for used machinery.

It's difficult for me to understand why you feel differently about this particular value proposition especially since you are not interested in buying it.

I don't suppose you are the seller..... Now that would be funny!

I'm thinking one of the reasons we are giving you a hard time is because you are running contrary to the advice we give everyone else on such things. But you don't have to take that advice. You can pay whatever you want.
So if he paid full price at $3400 or whatever it is not in sale then is his machine worth more when he sells?

No, I'm definitely not the seller but it's good to have some conversation on the topic.

You don't always have to wait 10 years for the unicorn that everyone is scavenging looking to find. If you buy a machine in good condition at a price fair enough you can get your money back when you find a unicorn it's a low risk move.

Not necessarily talking about that machine either, it just seems a lot of people think that machine are not a good deal unless it's priced to give away in a 15 minutes Kijiji ad that you compete to win.
 
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Jswain

Joe
I'm pretty sure the $2500 I paid for my South Bend, even with the wear on the ways was a reasonable price. However, back in 1942 I'm pretty sure the new price of it was way less than that.

I believe the market both new and used determines the price. A barely used mill like my friends G3617 type bought for probably about $4K is now $12K Cdn. So should he sell it for 50% of his purchased price ($2K) or 50% of the current market price ($6K)?
Exactly! Inflation makes that a flawed logic and IMO bad advice.
 

Tom Kitta

Ultra Member
IMHO the price should be based on current price for the same model or for similar equivalent model - this way these 1942 SB lathes will not be sold for $100.

I usually do not include taxes as they are just 5% in Alberta. In ON they may be a bigger deal with 13% but tooling is also cheaper when used as there is a LOT of it.

Regarding G3617 the equivalent machine is https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-9-x-39-2-hp-horizontal-vertical-mill-with-power-feed/g0757
Which is over 11,000 CAD.

Unless it is rather badly beaten the price of 2000 CAD for it used seems low. Since he got it for only $4000 the machine is rather ... old - so even with little use it would be hard to try to get say more than 50% of the value. BP style machines in AB that are over a decade old usually go for under $6000.

In Ontario less --

This is a larger Swedish made machine - horizontal - vertical - only $3500.
Very similar machine in Alberta (same tapers) - $8000 just posted.

So what could you get for G3617? Realistically $4000 for gently used one that is say 15 years old? Getting 50% at just under 6000 would be luck - as a buyer I would pick the Swedish machine anytime if it was indeed in excellent condition over excellent condition G3617. Yes, Swedish is a beast at around 5000 lbs and transport may cost more $ but its only 3500. There is simply so much choice in ON!
 
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Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
I'm pretty sure the $2500 I paid for my South Bend, even with the wear on the ways was a reasonable price. However, back in 1942 I'm pretty sure the new price of it was way less than that.

I was gunna put all kinds of caveats in about old stuff and collectors and inflation and and and. There are always different exceptions.

In hind sight I should have, but I'm tired of writing books and just wanted to get the point down and move on.

It gets too complicated if we start going back more than 10 years. As soon as you start doing inflation and taxes and and and, it gets messy. You can forget formulas. Some stuff holds its value, some turns to scrap. At that point, the best you can do is let the market decide as @jcdammeyer says.

I really only had one point that I am sticking to. That is that machines lose 20 to 30 % of their value the minute you take them home. Folks can and do pay more, but I'm not gunna be one of them nor am I gunna tell anyone else to do that. Nuff said.
 
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