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King Mill Drill-$2500 - North Bay area

Jswain

Joe
As long as you drive to London to pick it all up... 2350 + 175 shipping you are already over 2500 before tax, do they give you the stand for free & ship it free as well?

3250 with Ontario's 13% tax, not including shipping on the stand
 
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Tom Kitta

Ultra Member
As long as you drive to London to pick it all up... 2350 + 175 shipping you are already over 2500 before tax, do they give you the stand for free & ship it free as well?

3250 with Ontario's 13% tax, not including shipping on the stand

Why would you need to drive to pick up - if you are local just go to the store - found cheaper for 2275


I.e. its way, way, way better deal to get new.
 

Jswain

Joe
Is there kms tools in Ontario?

The Kijiji ad is ~ 500km from London Ontario, how much does it cost to drive there, likely stay the night and return home the next day?
 

Tom Kitta

Ultra Member
Is there kms tools in Ontario?

The Kijiji ad is ~ 500km from London Ontario, how much does it cost to drive there, likely stay the night and return home the next day?

Well, for someone from London it is a 500km drive to get there - if we consider distances in pricing then it is like $1000 more for someone from say Alberta. Unless shipping is mandatory one should not really consider it.

The stand is also an extra - some people I guess would spend few hundred for it, but most would not - they are all cheap sheet metal stands, not even close to what people make as a stand for these machines. Even the RF-45, much heavier machine, has rather flimsy stand.

It feels like you are getting a more than 10 year old machine for a discount of ... a stand? Even when taxes are included!

Machines do wear out and you do not know their history - so discount should be rather substantial for it to be a deal. Maybe if you know the history and machine is almost new - say 1 or 2 years old. Machine owned by your friend for say over a year, you know it was not abused & used for hobby only, then you can say, fine, I save just a bit more than taxes.

Of course others can pay what they like - I see routinely people pay more for used than for new!
 

Jswain

Joe
So for some people it could be a good deal, and maybe for others, if they live close to a distributor & plan on making their own stand then maybe not.
Not saying that one is, but if a machine is kept in immaculate condition it should fetch a proper dollar.

Say if you talked him down to 2k and were local. You'd save $350 off the sale price + $300 tax + $350 stand...that buys a vise & probably all the tooling you need
 

Tom Kitta

Ultra Member
So for some people it could be a good deal, and maybe for others, if they live close to a distributor & plan on making their own stand then maybe not.
Not saying that one is, but if a machine is kept in immaculate condition it should fetch a proper dollar.

Say if you talked him down to 2k and were local. You'd save $350 off the sale price + $300 tax + $350 stand...that buys a vise & probably all the tooling you need

Yes, certainly if you could have it for $2000 it would now look like a good deal provided machine is in close to like new state.
 

Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
So for some people it could be a good deal, and maybe for others, if they live close to a distributor & plan on making their own stand then maybe not.
Not saying that one is, but if a machine is kept in immaculate condition it should fetch a proper dollar.

Say if you talked him down to 2k and were local. You'd save $350 off the sale price + $300 tax + $350 stand...that buys a vise & probably all the tooling you need

I can't really recommend that deal assuming you could even get it for that. Fundamentally, you can't know it's immaculate unless you know the guy selling it. So you are taking a gamble on a machine with no warranty. In my mind, it lost 25% the day the owner took it home.

The other question. That needs to be asked is why is he selling it? Unless I know him personally can I really trust what he says?

Quite frankly, I'd rather pay half for a well used machine and know I probably have a few things to fix than gamble on an almost new machine from someone I don't know.

Also, you are not gunna get all the tooling you need for the difference you quote. Unless you have more patience to wait for really good deals on tooling, tooling will cost as much or more than the mill.

I'd pass if I were you.

Just my 2 cents for whatever it's worth Jswain.
 

Jswain

Joe
Just to clarify I'm not interested in that mill. I just think sometimes people confuse good deal with seller who doesn't know the value of what he is selling.

If you see a mill on Kijiji for $1000 and it sells in 35 minutes with 100 messages it wasn't a good deal, it was a guy who didn't know the value of what he just gave away, lol.

Most people on Kijiji are willing to barter, within reason, unless otherwise mentioned in the ad.

Another thing is a lot of people use these mills as stepping stones, to get to a bigger machine. You don't gain anything buying new @ max price and selling in a few years when you stumble upon a Bridgeport. What did that extra $1000 you spent gain you? A 1 year warranty on a $150 motor

Good chance that mill in the future, if kept it decent shape will always be worth ~$2000 so it's a pretty low risk purchase to upgrade in the future
 

Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
Just to clarify I'm not interested in that mill. I just think sometimes people confuse good deal with seller who doesn't know the value of what he is selling.

This is good news to me.

We can always agree to disagree on things, but I really didn't like that deal. I'm glad to hear it's not in your future.

Now that I know it's not in your future, and therefore without risk of offending you, let's have a good old fashioned debate!

Another thing is a lot of people use these mills as stepping stones, to get to a bigger machine. You don't gain anything buying new @ max price and selling in a few years when you stumble upon a Bridgeport.

Yes you do. You get the use of the machine for a few years to learn on and enjoy. You also get the confidence that goes with knowing you really do want the bigger Bridgeport and it won't end up a white elephant in your shop.

I think most of us who end up with a bridgeport or bigger mill start off with a new or used smaller machine. In my case two steps to get there - first a drill press with thrust bearings for milling, and then a bench top mill/drill. Both well used older machines when I got them. Both great learning opportunities. Each was a stepping stone to the next level. The mill/drill gave me the confidence to know I would be better served with a big knee mill Bridgeport Clone. I'll be selling the mill drill someday soon but not to a member without making sure they know exactly what they are getting. It will also be a deal.

What did that extra $1000 you spent gain you? A 1 year warranty on a $150 motor

Well, we all know warranties are a gamble. If all it gets you is a motor, you were prolly better off finding a new machine for 150 less without a warranty. But nobody sells new machines without a warranty unless they know they have a problem (eg the Busy Bee Lathes that won't run full speed.) but a new machine with a cracked gear case or a bent spindle or a warped table or a V-Way that's machined wrong, etc etc - is a whole nuther kettle of fish. Those are not $150 problems. They are the kind of things we get warranties for.

Good chance that mill in the future, if kept it decent shape will always be worth ~$2000 so it's a pretty low risk purchase to upgrade in the future

Well, we can just disagree on that without any debate. I just wouldn't pay 2000 for a used machine that was 2350 new. Maybe 1800 in pristine shape and 1500 well used but not damaged. I'd rather pay 2350 for a new one than 2000 for used. We all know new prices go up not down. I wouldn't expect to buy a mill for 2k, use it for two years, and then sell it for the 2k I paid for it because the new ones are 2350. I'd prolly list it for 1800 and prolly take 15.
 

Jswain

Joe
To go to the store and buy that mill with that stand right now in Ontario, with tax is $3050, not $2350

The warranty items you all mentioned would come up for the original owner. If you cant inspect the machine when you go check it out well enough to see those issues, how are you going to inspect it when you uncrate it and set it up? Does buying new protect you from this, or does inspecting the machine?
 

Tom Kitta

Ultra Member
To go to the store and buy that mill with that stand right now in Ontario, with tax is $3050, not $2350

The warranty items you all mentioned would come up for the original owner. If you cant inspect the machine when you go check it out well enough to see those issues, how are you going to inspect it when you uncrate it and set it up? Does buying new protect you from this, or does inspecting the machine?

Problem with me, buying a lot of used machinery, inspection is like ... you get lucky if you actually see the issue. I.e. it is not easy to account for all issues when inspecting. Heck, original owner may not know... or original owner may be a flipper (!) and may shamelessly hide stuff. What you gonna do, sue him for selling you used junk on Kajiji? I doubt you would win.

I got shot on the foot few times after I inspected an item. There are a lot of ... strange things you only notice after using a machine for a while.

Just a warning about inspections in general. Like house inspections - they may pass and later on you find out strange things!

As to machine value when used, everyone has their own measuring stick - some people will pay almost new price for a bit used stuff - heck Calgary is notorious for people wanting like new prices for used stuff.
 

Jswain

Joe
Well, he has it listed for 80% of new value, assuming $0 in tooling. If you talked him down to $2000 that's 66%.

Seems like a fair place to start, if he had it listed for $1500 we wouldn't be having this conversation because someone would have picked it up in 20 mins
 

Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
To go to the store and buy that mill with that stand right now in Ontario, with tax is $3050, not $2350

I never include tax in my value ladder. It has nothing to do with the value of the machine and varies by location.

I don't know the exact price of this thing. I merely went by what you said earlier. But that doesn't really matter. Since you are not buying, let's just use the 2350 as an debating benchmark.

The warranty items you all mentioned would come up for the original owner.

Exactly! And then maybe hidden, ignored, and flipped to me, instead of dealing with it!

If you cant inspect the machine when you go check it out well enough to see those issues, how are you going to inspect it when you uncrate it and set it up? Does buying new protect you from this, or does inspecting the machine?

This is THE ISSUE! We just view it differently.

When I buy used I make a list of items to inspect and I try my best to evaluate what it will cost me to fix them - assuming I can. Here is a list I made a while back and shared with others on the forum.

Post in thread 'First milling machine' https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/first-milling-machine.5441/post-80421

Ponder that list a bit and then consider what you might miss.......

When I am spending a lot of money on a used machine, I try to be as thorough as possible because there are literally DOZENS of ways I can get screwed.

I don't need to do that with a new machine. And that is PRECISELY WHY a new machine is worth so much more. The warranty for the first time buyer is usually a year. That's LOTS Of time to use it and find things wrong.

For a second hand machine you have to find it right up front before you pay and either account for it in your offer or walk away. After you pay, you have to pray you didn't miss anything. In my experience having bought a lot of used stuff over the course of my 77 years, you ALWAYS miss stuff.

It's nice to assume the seller is a great guy who will tell you everything that's wrong up front. It's also nice to assume he even knows! But neither one is a good bet.

I think most people with that class of machine start out as newbies and learn as they go. If the machine has bad ways, they don't even know it till the warranty is over. When/if they discover it, they flip it.

I don't want to be the flippee.

Ok, now it's time to make a few generalizations. They are strictly my opinion. I have no idea if they are right.

1. A good deal is any deal where both seller and buyer are happy.

2. Not all deals are good deals.

3. The majority of buyers will not pay more than 75% of new no matter what condition the item is in. Basically, the item loses 25% of its value during the trip home.

4. The majority of sellers don't ask for more than 75% of the new price for like new. They also know it lost value they day they took it home.

5. Not everyone is a member of the majority. You might pay more or want more.

6. But market values (new or used) are not set by individuals, they are set by the majority.

Therefore, I would never pay more than about 75% for used like new. Basically, I recognize that such things have a statistical character. Therefore, there is going to be machines where someone else will pay more than I will. So be it. I don't believe that they are the majority so I don't let that get me fussed. I just know I have to wait for the next opportunity.

Problem with me, buying a lot of used machinery, inspection is like ... you get lucky if you actually see the issue. I.e. it is not easy to account for all issues when inspecting. Heck, original owner may not know... or original owner may be a flipper (!) and may shamelessly hide stuff. What you gonna do, sue him for selling you used junk on Kajiji? I doubt you would win.

I got shot on the foot few times after I inspected an item. There are a lot of ... strange things you only notice after using a machine for a while.

Just a warning about inspections in general. Like house inspections - they may pass and later on you find out strange things!

As to machine value when used, everyone has their own measuring stick - some people will pay almost new price for a bit used stuff - heck Calgary is notorious for people wanting like new prices for used stuff.

I shamelessly agree with all of Tom's points here.
 

Dabbler

ersatz engineer
@Jswain you might know that @Tom Kitta buys and sells machinery regularly, and has a pretty good eye for value. I've been buying and selling less in numbers, but over a much longer period of time, and I have a pretty good idea of the Alberta market and how the Ontario market differs from AB.

IMO both @Tom Kitta and @Susquatch are being too polite and gentle in their discussion.

First my evaluation from the pictures - which anyone does if they are going to go and look at it.
1) this is not a 'like new' condition mill. the table wasn't kept oiled, which makes suspect that the other oil points were neglected as well.
2) This model, if 10 years old, did not commonly have oilers for the dovetails in the saddles, and an experienced machinist would immediately install them upon purchase. This gives a high probability that the saddle dovetails are worn, compromised - it is at least a risk. For the sake of argument, let's say the dovetails, upon inspection, are fine.
3) The rust on the table and the ditritis on the upper vertical dovetails shows neglect.
4) The mill is not bolted to the stand. This suggests that the owner is not an experienced machinist, especially after 10 years!
5) Using a drill press vise instead of a milling vise, shows that there is a certain stinginess, or lack of funding, or lack of knowledge about milling operations.

For these reasons (and a few more, bit I cut it short to dispel tedium), from the pictures alone, and the items shown this is a solid $1000 contender. In a generous mood, with a great sob story, possibly as high as $1300. Not a cent more. I am referring to the Ontario market. In AB, perjhaps 200$ more.

For comparison, I picked up a Modern Tool PM945 Knee mill for 2200$ from a company that was selling it. 100 logged ours on it. 8 years old. I gave then their ask price. When I said (before buying it) that it was worth 3000$, their reply was informative. Modern was only going to give them $1000 for a buyback. With slight rust on the table, they said it wouldn't present well. They had 1 month to vacate the bay. I was the 4th person to look at it (!!), and I paid them on the spot.

If it were a *steal* then one of the three before me would have paid them. They all made counter offers, despite the ad saying that the price was firm. To see what I mean, it is identical to the PM935tv. Here's the link: https://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/pm-935ts-tv/
 
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Jswain

Joe
If you don't think an $8000 mill for $2200 is a steal, then my point is made.

Just because we all find unicorns occasionally doesn't mean everything needs to be sold for 50% of what it's worth or less
 

Tom Kitta

Ultra Member
If you don't think an $8000 mill for $2200 is a steal, then my point is made.

Just because we all find unicorns occasionally doesn't mean everything needs to be sold for 50% of what it's worth or less

Dabbler is more extreme than me ;) I hope he is not going to price out my RF-45 or it will turn out not only I did all the work on it for free I actually have to pay for someone to take it ;)

On the other hand Ontario market is different than Alberta - far more used machinery is there. Dabbler actually carefully looked at the pictures forcing me to do the same. What I suspect through machine was mostly used for drilling - hence the drill press vise. It has rust as in Ontario its humid and was not used a lot since user is not a professional or even amateur machinist. I am guessing of course.

I just got a small band saw for $40. I needed to clean it up etc. But it works fine. I was shocked to see it sold (very similar) for over $500 new when I looked for its strange BS length of 52.5 in. Heck new blade set me back 18 from aliexpress - the only place that has stuff at reasonable price. So one can get unicorns. Got a large lathe for just $1000... granted without a gap and a bit used up, but still...

Both me, Dabbler and few others are actually... used to getting deals. I am frequently shocked by what people are willing to pay for used stuff in Alberta - heck even on auction.... I sold recently a Drill Press for 125 (Kajiji). A bit bigger one I was too lazy to sell... it sold at over $350 on auction. My jaw dropped. I would have been happy private sale for $200... why pp paid with fees over $400 for it?

As for pricing... Dabbler as usual is ... quite good at it -

In AB we have much cleaner looking, same type of machine, but with extra stuff for $1800 --

So Dabbler saying $1500 in Alberta is ... quite good. I mean you can argue plus minus $100 - but certainly not $1800 - the machine we have looks better and comes with more accessories. You can always say $1800 machine is cheap - sure - but it is there for 4 days now, so not a steal.

Ontario should be cheaper than Alberta.

Note that the machine class is oversized mini mill - these are not some heavy duty machines.

Price is set at a "fair" level - something I would say "check it out and buy".
 

Jswain

Joe
I would agree it was probably mostly used for drilling, as long as there isn't any witness marks that's not necessarily a bad thing.

I would also agree the ct129n is a better deal.

I find Kijiji in Calgary 50/50. You can find good deals occasionally If you are very fast on stumbling upon the ad & all the stars align, but I also watch a lot of stuff sell for a good price.

That's the whole point I'm trying to get across. I always try to buy at a good deal too, but it doesn't mean there is anything wrong with someone selling their items at 75-80 or whatever other %. And if it is in good shape there's nothing wrong with buying something like that either. Obviously the better the deal the lower the risk tolerance.

Nobody calls the guy selling the MyFord lathe for $1300 and says "excuse me sir, I will give you $4000 instead because that is a fair deal for you"
 

Tom Kitta

Ultra Member
That's the whole point I'm trying to get across. I always try to buy at a good deal too, but it doesn't mean there is anything wrong with someone selling their items at 75-80 or whatever other %. And if it is in good shape there's nothing wrong with buying something like that either. Obviously the better the deal the lower the risk tolerance.

When I started machining I got two new machines both from Busy Bee - the mini mill and 089 lathe. I sold both for over 80% of new (without tax). However, it was clear they were almost new due to production stamp and I could show the actual BB receipt.

There is nothing wrong with seller wanting more and buyer wanting less - its natural. I guess to a point - once they ask more than new its a bit over the top.
 
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