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for those who followed my car accident
- Thread starter Dabbler
- Start date
historicalarms
Ultra Member
Take it from a trucker of a few years experience...and I have seen more than a few RV's and their contents spread out for 100 yards in ditches....it ain't the ability to pull something... its the ability to control your load/trailer in a panic stop situation that should be the tantamount deciding factor in what to put behind your tow vehicle.
You might not realize it but the most common issue at fault when a bumper pull RV takes comand of the tow vehicle is the wind wake from a transport truck hitting the flat square back end of a RV. That wind force pushes the trailer with enough energy to jack knife the whole outfit...and if that trailer ever takes control of your tow vehicle, your just along for the ride wherever that ends up.
I cringe when I see a man with his family in a F150 or suv happily & obliviously towing his 25 ft bumper pull at 110 km hr down a highway.
You might not realize it but the most common issue at fault when a bumper pull RV takes comand of the tow vehicle is the wind wake from a transport truck hitting the flat square back end of a RV. That wind force pushes the trailer with enough energy to jack knife the whole outfit...and if that trailer ever takes control of your tow vehicle, your just along for the ride wherever that ends up.
I cringe when I see a man with his family in a F150 or suv happily & obliviously towing his 25 ft bumper pull at 110 km hr down a highway.
DPittman
Ultra Member
Exactly!
In my opinion, most vehicle manufacturers towing limits are MAXIMUM limits under ideal conditions (level, no wind, perfect conditions) and if you ever think you might tow in less than perfect conditions you better lower that limit.
Dabbler
ersatz engineer
@historicalarms @DPittman 100% agree. I have pulled various trailers since 1977; (many 10s of thousands of km) Some towing vehicles are dangerous once the trailer starts to oscillate - (sorry Ford guys) but the Explorer is the worst I used (for safety).
Most of my towing is flatbed and under 2500 lbs total trailer weight - so this truck will be fine... In fact far better than my '98 GMC 4WD, which seemed safe, with care, up to 4500 lbs towed weight. That's where my 80% figure comes from. It *was* the best towing vehicle I've used... But I don't have access to a RAM 3500, either.... I think this new one will be better.
Yes, I've learned, that the faster you go, the more energy in the oscillations, from experience.
Most of my towing is flatbed and under 2500 lbs total trailer weight - so this truck will be fine... In fact far better than my '98 GMC 4WD, which seemed safe, with care, up to 4500 lbs towed weight. That's where my 80% figure comes from. It *was* the best towing vehicle I've used... But I don't have access to a RAM 3500, either.... I think this new one will be better.
Yes, I've learned, that the faster you go, the more energy in the oscillations, from experience.
Dabbler
ersatz engineer
OK I'll fess up: I once towed as Toyota Sienna from Kenora to Calgary - with another Sienna. I took it slow, left lots of toom for decelerations, and avoided traffic situations by... slowing down.
Yes I know if someone pulled in front suddenly or other emergent situation, I'd be toast. But not too much unlike a fully loaded transport if someone did the same thing.
We got to Calgary just fine, with no close calls.
Yes I know if someone pulled in front suddenly or other emergent situation, I'd be toast. But not too much unlike a fully loaded transport if someone did the same thing.
We got to Calgary just fine, with no close calls.
I've been hanging back on this one wanting to hear what others think before adding my automotive expertise.
I think most of the experiences others have related is both fair and real. Towing a trailer always was, and always will be, a somewhat riskier than normal activity. And there will always be those bad experiences that get burned into our brains.
Once upon a time, trailer towing ratings were indeed a very competitive thing that automakers pushed to the limits. Unfettered by engineering facts, the marketing guys often took liberties unsupported by testing or science. In an unregulated field, there was little the engineering folks could do about it.
I forget the date, but I wanna say someplace shortly after the turn of the century, the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) struck a committee composed of engineering reps from each of the automakers to develop a common standard that could be used to put a leash on the sales & marketing folks as well as deal with the plethora of law suits out there. The result was SAE Standard J2807. I remember how everyone got pissed off when Toyoto broke ranks and was the first to certify their vehicles using the new standard ahead of the agreed effective date.
The SAE standard evaluates braking, acceleration, engine & transmission overheating, high speed cornering, sway control, and weight management. And yes, long steep up and down grades (mountain driving) is part of the standard. The standard was upgraded as new issues arose and I'll bet it is still being revised today.
When you see a trailer towing rating on a modern vehicle, you can rest assured that it isn't a number pulled out of some marketing guru's stinky butt.
That said, trailers come in a very wide variety of shapes, sizes, weight distributions, suspensions, and tires. The automakers have no control over the trailer market. The trailer market has SOME basic participation in standards and even the SAE has a few trailer standards. But trailer companies come and go, are often very small, and pretty much do what they want. This leaves consumers to decide what is reasonable. Some consumers do a good job of that and some don't.
If I can offer any advice here, it would be to err on the side of caution. The industry used to use what we called the 80% trailering rule. Never tow a trailer more than 80% of your vehicles GCWR. Some said 75% was better.
I don't see any reason any more to derate your towing capacity for the normal trailer towed by a modern vehicle. But if you have one of those huge long tail wagging travel trailers, or a tall enclosed trailer with internal wall racking, or a Uhaul Moving trailer (usually loaded to the gills), (edit - or a small flatbed with a giant tall heavy First Mill on it -
) install a hi quality sway control system, avoid loading it beyond the 80% rule, keep the speed down, give those highway semi trucks a wide berth, and use some good old fashioned common sense.
But all in all, I personally believe that it's a better trailering world out there than it once was.
I think most of the experiences others have related is both fair and real. Towing a trailer always was, and always will be, a somewhat riskier than normal activity. And there will always be those bad experiences that get burned into our brains.
Once upon a time, trailer towing ratings were indeed a very competitive thing that automakers pushed to the limits. Unfettered by engineering facts, the marketing guys often took liberties unsupported by testing or science. In an unregulated field, there was little the engineering folks could do about it.
I forget the date, but I wanna say someplace shortly after the turn of the century, the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) struck a committee composed of engineering reps from each of the automakers to develop a common standard that could be used to put a leash on the sales & marketing folks as well as deal with the plethora of law suits out there. The result was SAE Standard J2807. I remember how everyone got pissed off when Toyoto broke ranks and was the first to certify their vehicles using the new standard ahead of the agreed effective date.
The SAE standard evaluates braking, acceleration, engine & transmission overheating, high speed cornering, sway control, and weight management. And yes, long steep up and down grades (mountain driving) is part of the standard. The standard was upgraded as new issues arose and I'll bet it is still being revised today.
When you see a trailer towing rating on a modern vehicle, you can rest assured that it isn't a number pulled out of some marketing guru's stinky butt.
That said, trailers come in a very wide variety of shapes, sizes, weight distributions, suspensions, and tires. The automakers have no control over the trailer market. The trailer market has SOME basic participation in standards and even the SAE has a few trailer standards. But trailer companies come and go, are often very small, and pretty much do what they want. This leaves consumers to decide what is reasonable. Some consumers do a good job of that and some don't.
If I can offer any advice here, it would be to err on the side of caution. The industry used to use what we called the 80% trailering rule. Never tow a trailer more than 80% of your vehicles GCWR. Some said 75% was better.
I don't see any reason any more to derate your towing capacity for the normal trailer towed by a modern vehicle. But if you have one of those huge long tail wagging travel trailers, or a tall enclosed trailer with internal wall racking, or a Uhaul Moving trailer (usually loaded to the gills), (edit - or a small flatbed with a giant tall heavy First Mill on it -
) install a hi quality sway control system, avoid loading it beyond the 80% rule, keep the speed down, give those highway semi trucks a wide berth, and use some good old fashioned common sense.But all in all, I personally believe that it's a better trailering world out there than it once was.
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@Susquatch , I agree over the last forty years of towing trailers the vehicle manufactures have come a long way. The problem is usually with the trailer manufactures and how they build and balance their trailers. I bought a used goose neck dump trailer that the back of the box would contact the ground and wouldn't raise all the way up with a full load. When there was nothing in the box and it was raised there was only 50mm of clearance. I figure they took a 14' frame and added a 16' box to it. I raised the trailer and put heavier suspension under it to cure the problem.
Chicken lights
Forum Pony Express Driver
Why? I sort of get the gist of them, but (to me) it seemed like compensating for having too light of a tow vehicle, I have used one on a family members truck and trailer, but never found the need personally
Pppppffffffttttt
don’t worry about the mule load the damn wagon
If you can’t do a dollar then your tow vehicle is underpowered for the task at hand
That's even scary for the prairies, not even legal in BC.
I downsized to a Chevy Colorado in 2019 (from a Ram 2500 Diesel). I've been doing a lot of towing recently (more to come on that), some travel trailer (~5200lbs), mostly flat deck. The biggest variable in loads is wind resistance. Pulling the travel trailer, the sweet spot seems to be 94 km/h (sorry @Chicken lights -- no dollar here), and pulling flat deck, 105 - 110 is achievable. It simply comes down to what RPM are you comfortable with, and how much $$$ you want to throw out the window. All the loads have been almost flawless, and I think the key is proper loading and managing tongue weight and distribution.
The truck is rated to tow 7000 lbs but I've set 5500 as my personal max. Overall, I'm pretty impressed with the capability of this little truck. I don't think I'd be any happier with a 1/2 ton -- I don't think it would provide any tangible benefit.
The truck is rated to tow 7000 lbs but I've set 5500 as my personal max. Overall, I'm pretty impressed with the capability of this little truck. I don't think I'd be any happier with a 1/2 ton -- I don't think it would provide any tangible benefit.
Since this thread is off the rails already...
I worked for a logging outfit fixing trucks and trailers and hauling logs. Occasionally we would forward logs from 50-100 kms in the bush to the closest highway landing spot.. we would put the last loads of 16' logs on sideways and sometimes heap it up pretty high. Typically on the highway we would be 52000 kg, but in the bush we were well over 100k kgs, on ice, 10' wide roads, loader had to push us to get moving, sometimes 3 trucks and trailers chained together. So towing a travel trailer to me is less nerve wracking than it might be for some I guess.
I worked for a logging outfit fixing trucks and trailers and hauling logs. Occasionally we would forward logs from 50-100 kms in the bush to the closest highway landing spot.. we would put the last loads of 16' logs on sideways and sometimes heap it up pretty high. Typically on the highway we would be 52000 kg, but in the bush we were well over 100k kgs, on ice, 10' wide roads, loader had to push us to get moving, sometimes 3 trucks and trailers chained together. So towing a travel trailer to me is less nerve wracking than it might be for some I guess.
DPittman
Ultra Member
Biggest payloads I really ever handled were tandem loads of grain (30000lbs cargo) and sloshing tanks of water and that experience really makes me wonder about the crazy log loads I see on the back logging roads and the speeds they drive at. I've always wanted to ride along for a day with a logging trucker but have never gad the opportunity. Your story confirms that if I ever get the opportunity to do so that my ride would likely have me sitting on the edge of my seat and be "entertaning".
I hauled a few loads of slurry with an 18spd and you'd have to be really aware of grade, up or down, because the sloshing would make you blow shifts .
On the bush roads it's pretty crazy in the winter. Glare ice, steep hills, mountains even. Going in empty is way worse than coming out loaded. Miss those days.
I don't see any reason any more to derate your towing capacity for the normal trailer towed by a modern vehicle. But if you have one of those huge long tail wagging travel trailers, or a tall enclosed trailer with internal wall racking, or a Uhaul Moving trailer (usually loaded to the gills), (edit - or a small flatbed with a giant tall heavy First Mill on it -
But all in all, I personally believe that it's a better trailering world out there than it once was.
Nice to have the SAE protecting us from the marketing folks!
Overall weight ratings are important but like @kevin.decelles says the key to a well behaved tow is proper balancing of the trailer C of G and the tongue loads.
For tongue load I've always used "common sense" but I see 10 - 15% of trailer + load quoted as the correct value and that's probably what I've been using. So often I see the (swaying) tent trailer/camper etc. hooked to a passenger car with the back of the car almost dragging on the ground because the trunk is loaded and the rest of the heavy stuff got jammed into the front of the trailer and the driver cruises along blissfully unaware. I think I learned the correct ballpark "feel" early in the game by towing race cars around and very quickly found that where the car sat on the trailer was the difference between a white knuckle drive and a good tow.
The C of G position applies just as well to the First mill on that U-Haul flat bed (was that me @Susquatch?) When I picked up my machine I had to politely ignore the well meaning advice I was getting about moving it forward so more weight was on the hitch.....
C of G position close to trailer axle position is going to help the side load/sway stability too. If C of G is between the axles then most of the side load is going to be carried by the axles not the hitch and it won't drive sway.
If the tongue load is well balanced then it won't unbalance the braking ability either, remember, the front brakes provide the majority of braking capacity of a (4 wheeled) vehicle. Nothing like locking up the fronts in an emergency because the weight is all on the rears! In the case of the U-Haul trailer it's rating was high enough to need surge brakes so they would be useful if the trailer isn't swaying around! FWIW, the truck I rented from them was supposedly a half ton but it must have had the U-Haul special towing package because it was really stiffly sprung.
Pppppffffffttttt
don’t worry about the mule load the damn wagon
Hey @Chicken lights is this about right?
Anyhow, probably most of this isn't anything new to folks here but there's my 2 cents worth.
D
P.S. @Dabbler Good to hear you & yours are mending well. Nice Toyota!
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