• Spring 2024 meetup in Calgary - date Saturday, April 20/2024. discussion Please RSVP Here to confirm and get your invitation and the location details. RSVP NOW so organizers can plan to get sufficient food etc. It's Tomorrow Saturday! you can still RSVP until I stop checking my phone tomorrow More info and agenda
  • We are having email/registration problems again. Diagnosis is underway. New users sorry if you are having trouble getting registered. We are exploring different options to get registered. Contact the forum via another member or on facebook if you're stuck. Update -> we think it is fixed. Let us know if not.
  • Spring meet up in Ontario, April 6/2024. NEW LOCATION See Post #31 Discussion AND THE NEW LOCATION

Electrical question

JohnW

(John)
The lights would have a micro controller based controller in them. These days it is way cheaper to use tens of thousands of transistors running some software in a micro-controller to do a simple job, even though it seems like overkill. A small embedded processor and a transistor costs much less than a dollar in volumes (cheaper than a mechanical switch) and once you've written the software, the per unit manufacturing cost for the software is zero. Once you are writing software it is pretty much free from a manufacturing point of view to add more features.

Why use a grounded line instead of a powered one? It is safer for the circuit.

One of the IO pins of the computer will be pulled up to 5V (or maybe 3.3V - called Vcc either way) by a high value resistor, so it is normally at Vcc. The IO pin itself will be in high-impedance mode (basically almost not connected to anything). As long as the pin stays between 0 and Vcc it draws almost no current (as in much less than 1 millionth of an amp) . The controller will detect when it is pulled to ground and probably cycle through one of its flashing options each time.

The key is that it is far more likely that a signal wire will accidentally short to ground than short to 12V. With this configuration, shorting to ground is normal and does no damage. A well designed signal circuit like this will also not be damaged by a short to 12V either since another high-value resistor will be used to isolate it. Signal circuits like this typically draw less than a milli-amp so there is no real danger either way.

When electronically switching power circuits in a vehicle, the standard is to run 12V to the device (light, solenoid, fuel injector, ignition coil, motor, etc), and ground it via a transistor inside the electronic control module. With a circuit like that, an accidental short to ground in the wiring will turn on the device, but not damage anything. A short in the 12V line before the device would just blow a fuse.

If it were wired the other way with the device grounded and the 12V power being applied by the big transistor in the electronic control module (the way things used to be wired with mechanical switches), a short to ground either in the wiring or inside the device, would cause a current spike that could destroy the transistor before the fuse blows and wreck the electronic module.

As previously mentioned, it does not matter where in the circuit that it is opened up. It can be at the ground end, the power end, or anyplace in the middle.

To add to that, remember that when they discovered electrons they got the charge wrong, so it turns out that electrical current (the electrons themselves) actually flows from negative to positive even though we almost always think of conventional current that flows from positive to negative just because it makes more intuitive sense for electricity to flow "downhill" (from positive to negative). In most cases, it makes absolutely no difference which way you think about it.

The most common exception for metal workers is when welding since there is significantly more heat transfer in the directions that the electrons are actually traveling in an arc (from negative to positive). Hence DC TIG welding normally has the electrode negative so the arc is transferring heat to the material instead of melting the end of the tungsten.
 

Chicken lights

Forum Pony Express Driver
The lights would have a micro controller based controller in them. These days it is way cheaper to use tens of thousands of transistors running some software in a micro-controller to do a simple job, even though it seems like overkill. A small embedded processor and a transistor costs much less than a dollar in volumes (cheaper than a mechanical switch) and once you've written the software, the per unit manufacturing cost for the software is zero. Once you are writing software it is pretty much free from a manufacturing point of view to add more features.

Why use a grounded line instead of a powered one? It is safer for the circuit.

One of the IO pins of the computer will be pulled up to 5V (or maybe 3.3V - called Vcc either way) by a high value resistor, so it is normally at Vcc. The IO pin itself will be in high-impedance mode (basically almost not connected to anything). As long as the pin stays between 0 and Vcc it draws almost no current (as in much less than 1 millionth of an amp) . The controller will detect when it is pulled to ground and probably cycle through one of its flashing options each time.

The key is that it is far more likely that a signal wire will accidentally short to ground than short to 12V. With this configuration, shorting to ground is normal and does no damage. A well designed signal circuit like this will also not be damaged by a short to 12V either since another high-value resistor will be used to isolate it. Signal circuits like this typically draw less than a milli-amp so there is no real danger either way.

When electronically switching power circuits in a vehicle, the standard is to run 12V to the device (light, solenoid, fuel injector, ignition coil, motor, etc), and ground it via a transistor inside the electronic control module. With a circuit like that, an accidental short to ground in the wiring will turn on the device, but not damage anything. A short in the 12V line before the device would just blow a fuse.

If it were wired the other way with the device grounded and the 12V power being applied by the big transistor in the electronic control module (the way things used to be wired with mechanical switches), a short to ground either in the wiring or inside the device, would cause a current spike that could destroy the transistor before the fuse blows and wreck the electronic module.

As previously mentioned, it does not matter where in the circuit that it is opened up. It can be at the ground end, the power end, or anyplace in the middle.

To add to that, remember that when they discovered electrons they got the charge wrong, so it turns out that electrical current (the electrons themselves) actually flows from negative to positive even though we almost always think of conventional current that flows from positive to negative just because it makes more intuitive sense for electricity to flow "downhill" (from positive to negative). In most cases, it makes absolutely no difference which way you think about it.

The most common exception for metal workers is when welding since there is significantly more heat transfer in the directions that the electrons are actually traveling in an arc (from negative to positive). Hence DC TIG welding normally has the electrode negative so the arc is transferring heat to the material instead of melting the end of the tungsten.
I think I’m with you on the switching to ground, that makes complete sense how everyone’s explained it, for the beacons.

I lose you on the “power path”, though

I had three light bulbs in a group that weren’t working as an example. I removed the panel they were mounted on, plugged in one of my dummy plugs with wires, then fed the lights power and ground with a battery charger. That isolates it to those three lights, and eliminates everything else. Basic diagnostics

The lights didn’t light up (they were incandescent so that eliminates the Led polarity issue). So I moved the ground to the stainless panel. The lights lit up, telling me I have a bad ground. Easy fix

So can you explain this backwards power thing using smaller words please? In my head- I had power there, but no ground. As soon as I had a ground the circuit could complete itself.

And, yes I’m aware you can test for a ground by hooking your test light up to positive, it will light up if you touch it to a good ground.

Same with a switched circuit that is controlling power, you have power on one side of the switch, until you switch it on to let the power flow.
 

JohnW

(John)
The key is the concept of a "circuit". The power (conventional current) will go from the positive supply to ground (negative supply). The power is then "boosted" back up to the positive supply voltage by the supply (adding energy), and it goes around the circuit again. There needs to be a complete loop for current to flow. Breaking the loop at any point will stop the current. It does not matter where in the circuit it is broken. You can open the circuit on the power side, the ground side, or in the middle. Once there is a break in the circuit, the current tops flowing.

The circuit can even be broken inside the power supply - for instance a 12V battery that has a broken internal jumper between the plates. If you want 24V, you can put two 12V batteries in series with a switch between them. That switch will break the circuit and no current will flow. It does not matter where the switch is.

You did catch on to an important point: LED's will only work in one direction. An incandescent lamp can work in either direction. The "D" in LED stands for Diode, so it only flows in one direction. Be careful though. One of the specifications of a diode is the maximum reverse voltage it can handle. On LED's it is quite low. Connecting an LED backwards to 12V might be OK, or it might not. If the voltage is higher than the LED can take, it will suddenly flow a bunch of current and let out its magic smoke.

Hope that helps.
 

Chicken lights

Forum Pony Express Driver
541B3CBB-231C-4C57-9876-5F49C3A6BF39.jpeg
I thought this was gonna be simple to replace the strobes on the front bumper. I’d have to look if the old ones were 2 wire or 3 wire. But if I’m reading that right these ones change pattern using positive power.
Looks like red is 12v constant, black is ground, white is switched power for on/off, and yellow is switched power to change the patterns
I think I’m reading that right
 
Top