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easy Schaublin w12 to er16 collet project

TorontoBuilder

TorontoBuilder

Sapientia et Doctrina Stabilitas
So I finally found a cheap viable option to add tooling to my meyrat and luisoni tousdiamants mill/faceting machine

I'm not paying 1200 euros for a set of w12 collets. I'm going to buy this blank W12 arbour and machine it into an ER16 collet chuck. No need to machine the buttress threads at all. 23mm x 40mm machinable round section... ER16 requires M19 x 1.0 for the nut. 8 degree taper angle and a 22mm bore, Easy stuff.

Cheap enough to buy 2 or 3 of these blank arbours and then make a slitting saw arbour too

p1060157.jpg
 
TorontoBuilder said:
So I finally found a cheap viable option to add tooling to my meyrat and luisoni tousdiamants mill/faceting machine

I'm not paying 1200 euros for a set of w12 collets. I'm going to buy this blank W12 arbour and machine it into an ER16 collet chuck. No need to machine the buttress threads at all. 23mm x 40mm machinable round section... ER16 requires M19 x 1.0 for the nut. 8 degree taper angle and a 22mm bore, Easy stuff.

Cheap enough to buy 2 or 3 of these blank arbours and then make a slitting saw arbour too

p1060157.jpg
Click to expand...

I have not updated this project in like a year and a half or so, because the vendor selling the used blank arbor sold it before I could buy it.

The only other blanks I've found are over $200CAD which is stupid.

So alternatives...

I heard one fellow modified an E11 tool holder to fit the w12 spindle as shown below. I'd imagine that these are hardened tool holders, so not an easy task. All the holders I've seen have wrench flats where the taper would be. The collet nut would need to be tightened with only the stud in the spindle preventing the rotation of the collet...

1734409456120.png



This at least gave me the idea that I can make my own collet chuck using a thread different from the W12's buttress thread.
 
fixerup said:
would these work
www.ebay.com

WW .275 x 40 Blank Arbor for 8mm Watchmaker Lathe | eBay

WW style threaded 8mm collet unhardened blank for making special arbors, working holding fixtures, etc.
www.ebay.com
Click to expand...

Thanks for the suggestion @fixerup I've looked at all sorts of other small collets. Sherline makes the ww collets and has a long list of most 8mm collet makers and their size which makes it easy to quickly check.

But the easy part that rules them out is that my spindle has a 12mm locator bore deep within the spindle to assure that the collet is aligned. They have this feature because the 8 degree taper is very short and cant align the collet on its own. I suppose I could make sleeves and a new drawbar but it is likely easier to make an adapter.

What really pisses me off is that sherline makes one lone W12 collet accessory. It is a chuck adapter to be able to mount one of their chucks. It has a 3/4"-16 threaded stud on it. Pretty useless for me and $65USD.
 
Sowa has R8 to Er16 chuck that has a short projection of 1.25" (they eliminated wrench flats) that I could slice and dice on the grinder.
1734453670611.png

Mcmaster Carr has similar, but with only 1" projection instead of 1.25"

1734453891208.png




First I could mount a 3/8" precision ground rod in a ER16 collet and snug the collet into the R8 chuck adapter, and then mount the other end of the rod into a 5C collet in our harig precision grinding spindle. This set up should give the least possible run out for grinding operations.

Then lop off the ass end of the R8 adapter with a parting wheel leaving this:

1734454031842.png



Then proceeding through rough and finish grinding stages I could grind the chuck to reduce the R8 taper to a round diameter of 24-25.7mm.

Then grinding the section to the left to a diameter of 16.45mm, then grinding the next section to just shy of 14mm, then grinding the final section to 12mm. Then finally turning the grinding fixture 8 degrees to the wheel I could grind the taper onto the 16.45mm section leaving this:


1734454139593.png


The chuck would fit into the spindle with a close sliding fit at the 12mm section of the spindle. I'd likely grind a groove for the locator pin, as well as wrench flats on the 24mm section. I'd make a new drawbar to match the R8 chuck thread and end up with a nice fitting hopefully accurate bit of kit.

1734455389917.png


But who are we kidding? I'm not paying 150USD for a chuck just to grind it down.

I'll buy a tool steel round, chuck it in the 3 jaw chuck and rough turn it to the approximate dimensions. Then drill the 11.5mm hole, then the smaller thru hole for the drawbar, and finally turn the E16 taper. I'll buy a nut, I'm not crazy.

Then pop the chuck into my heat treatment oven and give it a cycle to achieve an appropriate hardness and then I only need to give everything a very accurate finish grinding pass to bring the chuck into the final dimensions.

So, at this stage I'll be able to use my little swiss mill for very light milling tasks which is perfect for my modeling and camera making needs.
 
Now, I had a thread about the potential of using this spindle as a grinding spindle but I can not find it any longer. @Mcgyver added his opinion on the matter but I forget what he said because my memory isn't what it once was. Hence having to write everything down in threads that I can't ever find again.

The quality of the bearings and spindle is very high, and I know that it can run at higher milling rpms, and maybe external grinding rpms with light 3" wheels. But I had hoped that maybe I could use this spindle to also perform light internal grinding for tapers and such if the use was limited duration and not very often.
It is a risk, do I ruin a precision spindle trying to find out, or do I get a different spindle. Poverty leaves one with difficult choices.
IF I am already going to set up for grinding operations particularly with the ER16 taper I could easily add another task and turn, heat treat and grind a whole spindle for another separate grinder. One that would fit the bore of my existing tool post grinder perhaps, or that would fit the bore of one of our dickson tool holders.

Or make that spindle ER20 size... but with the same inner rear type projection... because it can be used to mount grinding quills that are made to match the Er16 taper and the rear internal projection. In the example a 100mm long quill with a taper from 12mm to 2mm, and a 2mm x 12mm long mounting point for a glue on cone.

1734459796104.png
 
I erred in the last part. I didn't have everything in sketch selected prior to revolving the part. But fixed it now.

In order to hold a quill a standard Er16 nut needs to have the ridge ground down slightly because the cap wont grab the quill the way it grabs a collet prior to inserting it into the chuck.

I figure if I grip the quill first by the 12mm boss at the head of the tapers I can grind the tapers (I may need to make the boss longer) and locating pin first. Then I can mount the ER16 chuck in the grinding spindle, and insert ground quill base into the chuck. Then I can grind the quill length with the far end supported by a tail stock. This should ensure the least run out for the assembly.


1734463544797.png
 
'Now you are making my head hurt lol.

I have a w12 to ER16 adapter so they were made by someone at some point.

As for making one, just make the whole thing except for the nut. It's the tricky bit and they can be purchased If you turn the ER ID and W12 OD at the same set up you'll have near perfect concentricity. Hardened and ground is nice, but i don't think is strictly necessary ...... making it out of a heat treated chrome moly would I think be good enough for the careful and less than full time use we put them to.
 
Last edited:
Mcgyver said:
If you turn the ER ID and WE12 OD at the same set up you'll have near perfect concentricity.
Click to expand...
That is my intention.

Mcgyver said:
Hardened and ground is nice, but i don't think is strictly necessary ......
Click to expand...
Yeah it is a good thing my wife doesn't read this forum of she'd be on me for buying a heat treat oven I said as crucial to tool making.

I more thought this because I'm think hardened tool steel gets a better grind finish.
 
Man, that's a skinny turn down. These are Themac's arbors for reference. I thought there was a (reduced) max recommended RPM if using these vs just the stone diameter rule of thumb, but I may be mistaken or thinking of something else.

1734468435537.png
 
PeterT said:
Man, that's a skinny turn down. These are Themac's arbors for reference. I thought there was a (reduced) max recommended RPM if using these vs just the stone diameter rule of thumb, but I may be mistaken or thinking of something else.

View attachment 56095
Click to expand...
Thanks for these...

Yeah before I commit to anything I'll be researching a lot more. I can also make the tip wider and just dress more material off of the core if I need to fit a smaller bore.

In some really small sizes I may more likely drill ream and then lap too.
 
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