Car designs suck

[mickeyf]

Talked to a guy 2 maybe 3 years ago and he said his plain Jane Leaf cost him 55k by the time he drove it off the lot.

Every criticism of electric vehicles I see in forums is from people who "heard from a guy", and it's frequently based on stories from a dozen years ago and quite stubbornly insistent - never from an actual EV owner.

We had a new-to-us Leaf for a couple of years, in that time it 1/2 paid for for itself in the fuel and maintenance saved, in direct comparison with our mini-van. Only traded up for a Kona because it had about 2-1/2 times the range. Both do lose some range in winter, but we are in the best climate for that, and it did not impact our use. Other parts of the country might not be so great. All charging is at home, with the Leaf we did have to use public chargers when on long trips. The Leaf was an OK city car but not great for long distances. The Kona gets us over 500K on a charge which is more than I want to spend behind the wheel without a break these days. No more of the 18 hour cross country marathons of my foolish youth, thank you.

But in any case - no oil changes, no exhaust system, no anti-freeze since no radiator, minimal brake wear (since regenerative braking), no transmission fluid changes, no carbs, fuel injectors or fuel pumps to fail, no catalytic converter to steal (if you live in places where that's an issue), and it's QUIET! ( I realize that the unmuffled roar of a big IC engine appeals to many, just not my thing.)

Check back with me in a few years and few 100 thousand k's for an update.

 

[jorogi]

I don't think it is incredible luck. Of course Toyota too has had there share of stupid and poor designs depending on the model and year but Toyotad have had a very good track record for long life and durability. Lots of people with several hundred thousand kms on there vehichles with very little repair or problems. Unfortunately it seems that Toyota quality has taken a bit of a dive in recent years.
I have a Toyota Sienna van that I'm still clocking the k's on and is presently at 330000kms. It burns no oil, no leaks and has been mostly trouble free other than a couple of sensors and routine maintenance. The interior is still in awesome shape and the seats are amazing good quality. Its hard to tell good quality in a brand new seat but after a couple hundred thousand kms, the good quality outshines the competition. Take a look at any Chrysler minivan after a couple thousand kms and the seats are usually sunken trash.
I wish I could buy a brand new 2005-2015 Toyota, I'd do it in a heart beat.

Some rich friends of ours had one of those vans for soccer mom duty. Bought brand new, always maintained, an “only driven to church on Sunday “ kinda car. Five years later they buy a new one and offer the first one to us for basically nothing (my wife is a sweetie ). I said no. I’ve spent time on the ocean, thousands of hours in the air and many of those not what most would consider the right way up. Never been motion sick, I did have two twenty minute rides in that van and was as sick as a dog both times.

 

[Elektrishun]

As I mentioned in another thread one of my main concerns with the current state of modern designs is proprietary software. Modern vehicles don't seem to be any different.

What do you do when you go to start your 2009 Chevy Uplander and it doesn't start? A lot of us figure it out and are back on the road in a short time.

What are you going to do if your electric car doesn't start? After you contact the dealership feel free to call me for a ride.

But if you're getting in on the back passenger side don't keep pulling on the door! If it's the back driver's side door, keep pulling.

 

[Warlock]

What are you going to do if your electric car doesn't start?

The only option use to be for a Harley Davidson motorcycle was a pickup truck, for the electric go-carts it's a trailer hitch mounted generator.
Just wait til the go-carters have to pay a road tax ( Alberta and Saskatchewan ), the electric utilities decide you need a dedicate time of usage meter for topping up the go-cart, the higher electric utility bill due to rebuilding the electric system grid or the increase in provincial and federal taxes due to the drop in revenue from fuel taxes.

Keep in mind that the gov-nor-ment will figure out a sin tax to offset any lost revenue caused by the go-carters.

 

[Susquatch]

Take a look at any Chrysler minivan after a couple thousand kms and the seats are usually sunken trash.

That is a really odd observation!

My parents used to buy a new minivan every two years. Why? "Because they were the most comfortable vehicle on the market."

My daughter has one too and often comments on how comfy it is - especially on long trips. In the comfort ratings, the minivan ranks high.

Minivans were also a popular taxi vehicle in Ontario.

It's hard to rationalize your observation. I never worked in vehicle interiors so I have no expertise in that area of vehicle design. But I do know that comfort is VERY SUBJECTIVE. In fact, I had a truck a long time ago that I got rid of because I couldn't sit in it without getting rot butt. So it's entirely possible that your hinny has different needs than the average character's backside.

 

[DPittman]

Thats inter

Some rich friends of ours had one of those vans for soccer mom duty. Bought brand new, always maintained, an “only driven to church on Sunday “ kinda car. Five years later they buy a new one and offer the first one to us for basically nothing (my wife is a sweetie ). I said no. I’ve spent time on the ocean, thousands of hours in the air and many of those not what most would consider the right way up. Never been motion sick, I did have two twenty minute rides in that van and was as sick as a dog both times

That's interesting. I'll get sea sick on the patio swing if I'm not careful. I've always been that way. I have no problems in our van as a driver or a passenger in any of the seats.

.

 

[DPittman]

That is a really odd observation!

My parents used to buy a new minivan every two years. Why? "Because they were the most comfortable vehicle on the market."

My daughter has one too and often comments on how comfy it is - especially on long trips. In the comfort ratings, the minivan ranks high.

Minivans were also a popular taxi vehicle in Ontario.

It's hard to rationalize your observation. I never worked in vehicle interiors so I have no expertise in that area of vehicle design. But I do know that comfort is VERY SUBJECTIVE. In fact, I had a truck a long time ago that I got rid of because I couldn't sit in it without getting rot butt. So it's entirely possible that your hinny has different needs than the average character's backside.

Im not saying that a Chrysler minivan seats are not initially just as comfortable but rather I'm commenting on the quality of construction and how they last. Your parents buying a new minivan every two years because they were so comfortable isn't a comparison with my 16 year old Toyota seats.
When we bought our van, the mother in law soon also bought a brand new Chrysler van. Ours was a basic Toyota model and hers was a Chrysler model with all the bells and whistles. We both paid about the same price for our vans. We really liked the Chryslere "stow and go" feature of the seats. About 6-8 years down the road the quality of the two vans definitely started to show, the seats being very obvious. The mother in law is a tiny old lady so she certainly isn't hard on seats like a young family like us either.

Yes my hinny and spine definitely has different needs than the average person but Im sure glad I didn't get swayed by the cool stow and go option of the Chrysler minivan at that time.

 

[Susquatch]

Im not saying that a Chrysler minivan seats are not initially just as comfortable but rather I'm commenting on the quality of construction and how they last.

You did initially say after a few thousand clicks the seats were mushy. So that's what I was reacting to.

Your parents buying a new minivan every two years because they were so comfortable isn't a comparison with my 16 year old Toyota seats.

My daughters van is 350,000 km's. They drive up north to his families cottage several times a year and they love how comfy and reliable the van is.

Yes my hinny and spine definitely has different needs than the average person but Im sure glad I didn't get swayed by the cool stow and go option of the Chrysler minivan at that time.

I think we both agree that comfort is subjective. We are all different.

Isn't it cool how our cars are almost like dogs. We all have our favorite breeds and our hated breeds and we love them or hate them so much!

 

[Mike R]

I used to travel for work a lot and rented many cars. I got to know which brands had interiors that were more durable.

Chrysler were not in the top rankings, pieces would always be falling off on those cars. Toyota were durable but plain, Ford were ok, better than GM.
Jeep were terrible ( another Chrysler product). I had a Kia Sephia in California, I think the steering wheel still has my hand prints in it after it melted in the sun.
I used that experience to help shape my car buying. Even if you want a new car, shop for 3-4 year old ones of the same model first to get a sense of the durability. Did that when buying a full size SUV. Toyota won that one, Most other brands were average, but Nissan stood out as a big surprise on the bad side.
I had (have) a personal bias against GM, but their cars with drive by wire throttle that had a 3 second delay didn’t help win me back.

 

[DPittman]

You did initially say after a few thousand clicks the seats were mushy. So that's what I was reacting to.

Yup I did and I misspoke. That certainly is not the case that Chrysler seat are trash after only a few thousand kms! What I should have said was after significant kms they were definitely showing the poorer quality . Now of course all of my statements are only based on my experience and my experience is no doubt not very current anymore.

I'm glad to hear that Chrysler minivan seats are durable and the vehicle is reliable. A Chrysler minivan was certainly my second choice at the time I purchased my Toyota.

 

[slow-poke]

I used to travel for work a lot and rented many cars. I got to know which brands had interiors that were more durable.

I had a similar experience. Back in the late 70s-early 80's (high school). I had a job installing car stereos. We did about 70% of our business with dealers for brand new cars.
Customer wants am/fm cassette and the car only has an am we pick it up pull the old one and install a factory look-a-like, and bring it back to the dealer. Some days I would drive 5 new cars. I drove thousands of cars, and never put a scratch in one of them. The American cars were at their absolute low for quality during that period. The GMs that had not had their dealer tune up would often barely run, back firing and shaking just unbelievable. You really get a sense for what drives nice and quality vs crap etc. Of all those cars the one that I thought was a really nice balance of everything was a Honda Prelude. Fastest was a 69/70? Vette with a 454, 4 spd manual steering and brakes, I took the long way to the back doors of our shop and that baby just about got away from me.

 

[jorogi]

Thats inter

That's interesting. I'll get sea sick on the patio swing if I'm not careful. I've always been that way. I have no problems in our van as a driver or a passenger in any of the seats.

And sweetie had no problems with that van and she'll get seasick if she looks into her teacup too soon after stirring.

 

[whydontu]

Boots Theory

Boots theory - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[6.5 Fan]

I can 100% agree with the Boots theory.

 

[slow-poke]

I’ve spent time on the ocean, thousands of hours in the air and many of those not what most would consider the right way up. Never been motion sick, I did have two twenty minute rides in that van and was as sick as a dog both times.

Hmmm...
I know a guy.....
That paddled a canoe 6000 miles around the Gulf of Mexico and was never seasick not even once, swells > 10' very common. Then took a freighter from Belem to Gulfport and puked his guts out daily.

My wife had a Sienna, none of us ever had any issues it was very comfortable and had one repair to 250k, cleaned it up for sale the interior looked like new. When we sold it the guy couldn't get his wallet open fast enough and told us he looked at about 10 vans some with half the milage that looked and ran like crap in comparison. The guy had a smile from ear to ear.

No squeaks, no rust (krown every year), engine perfect, the van drove like the day we bought it. I would not be the least bit surprised if it went another 250k

 

[Downwindtracker2]

SUVs that can't be driven on gravel logging roads. That's all of them. Twigs will put a holes in those tires. SUV means sport utility vehicle,. That was what the original Jeep Wagoneer was called.

 

[Elektrishun]

I can 100% agree with the Boots theory.

I am sure there is a lot to the basis of that theory that I don't know.

But I wonder if it considers the possibility that besides the lack of quality there is also a mindset that goes with it? In more affluent societies when something stops working depending on the replacement cost and what an individual can afford maybe we're too quick to throw away?

The type of people who post on this forum are likely people who go against the grain of "it's a throw away world".

I know I believe in the Right to Repair even if the company that produced the item doesn't.

 

[Chicken lights]

SUVs that can't be driven on gravel logging roads. That's all of them. Twigs will put a holes in those tires. SUV means sport utility vehicle,. That was what the original Jeep Wagoneer was called.

I swear if you put an IH scout next to a new Bronco, you'd think they were kissing cousins

 

[Susquatch]

SUVs that can't be driven on gravel logging roads. That's all of them. Twigs will put a holes in those tires.

I dunno, I have driven the Rubicon Trail. At the time, it was the only 10 rated trail in North America. I don't think it get tougher than that. I also have lots of hours on gravel logging roads in a factory SUV. Never got a flat even once. But ya, there are tough tires and then there are TOUGH tires.

 

[DPittman]

I swear if you put an IH scout next to a new Bronco, you'd think they were kissing cousins

In looks only.