Car designs suck

[historicalarms]

Mechanical Engineers moto....put the most likely to fail piece on the floor first and then add everything else needed around it

 

[Susquatch]

Mechanical Engineers moto....put the most likely to fail piece on the floor first and then add everything else needed around it

Sometimes it does feel that way. But the truth is that it sounds more like a salesman's motto than an engineer's.....

 

[Dan Dubeau]

I routinely get to work on stuff they seemingly built the plant around. What a treat.....Not going to lie, it's actually quite fun and provides a lot of unique problem solving opportunities, and creative multistage rigging moves. Still frustrating and word inventing though......

Don't get me started on Automotive engineers though..... In my (limited in dealing with THAT side of automotive engineering) experience, most packaging decisions are driven purely by ease of assembly, with servicing being an afterthought, but not totally ignored. Which sometimes makes it seems like they specifically go out of their way to screw over the mechanic.....But it's mostly driven by assembly line logistics. Working on the teams that come up with the special tools, and servicing procedures would be a fun job though.....

Correct me if I'm wrong Squatch, but that's how it was always told to me in my industry adjacent roll of designing and building the inspection fixtures and gauges. Always seemed pretty plausible also given my assembly line experience where it seemed like nothing in the entire process was more important than keeping that line moving.....

 

[Chicken lights]

I routinely get to work on stuff they seemingly built the plant around. What a treat.....Not going to lie, it's actually quite fun and provides a lot of unique problem solving opportunities, and creative multistage rigging moves. Still frustrating and word inventing though......

Don't get me started on Automotive engineers though..... In my (limited in dealing with THAT side of automotive engineering) experience, most packaging decisions are driven purely by ease of assembly, with servicing being an afterthought, but not totally ignored. Which sometimes makes it seems like they specifically go out of their way to screw over the mechanic.....But it's mostly driven by assembly line logistics. Working on the teams that come up with the special tools, and servicing procedures would be a fun job though.....

Correct me if I'm wrong Squatch, but that's how it was always told to me in my industry adjacent roll of designing and building the inspection fixtures and gauges. Always seemed pretty plausible also given my assembly line experience where it seemed like nothing in the entire process was more important than keeping that line moving.....

Yep. Takes a week to prep to remove an old machine. Very limited travel room. Takes a week to prep for the new machine. Can't move a single thing to disrupt production even for safety reasons. Get the truck in and out ASAP and get them off the property. Or at least that's my experience too

 

[slow-poke]

Sometimes I wonder if some of new cars are engineered to be difficult to work on to drive up service prices when things start to fail. Anybody with some sort of lifting device could pull a engine out of a pre 90's car. For example early Mustang:
Driveshaft: 4 fasteners
Crossmember :2
Engine mounts : 2
Rad & hoses: 6
Exhaust: 4-8
So < 20 fasteners and engine and transmission are ready to lift out.

Contrast that to
A headlight replacement on the GMC and Chevy trucks requires you to remove the entire bumper, and the washer fluid reservoir, and the cowling on top, and on some models part of the inner fender. Buicks I turn away after having to remove the entire subframe to perform a spark plug change on a Lucerne.

Some of these cars require disassembly of the entire chassis to get the engine out the bottom, that's just stupid.

 

[Susquatch]

Correct me if I'm wrong Squatch, but that's how it was always told to me in my industry adjacent roll of designing and building the inspection fixtures and gauges.

In the auto industry, it used to be that every manufacturer's processes were different. I started in that Era. But through the years the systems changed radically. Some manufacturers use different approaches, but they are all still very similar.

In the old days, you designed it to work first, then refined it for life expectations based on testing, then refined it again for service, and last for manufacturing. So it was quite the opposite of what you might think.

Today, all the processes are looked after simultaneously.

Serviceability and manufacturing are all part of the simultaneous design process. CAE (Computer Aided Engineering) systems include suppliers, manufacturing, and serviceability processes as part of the deal from the git-go. In fact, even the construction or modification of the assembly plant itself is part of the CAE process of designing a part or a vehicle. When a design is finally done, everything around it is also done. That way the last stage of production implimentation, final tooling, and service instructions are all ready to go with job one.

There are three huge wrinkles in the process.

The biggest of all is cost. The market goes soft, or the shareholder isn't happy, or some external factor becomes a dictator. The bean counters take control, departments get gutted, experts get retired, budgets get slashed, new management gives new orders and new priorities, and shit happens. My biggest complaint is the demand for budget and cost cuts without justification or even analysis.

Your budget just got cut by 20% - no ifs ands or buts. Just figure out how to do it. And there is another 10% cut coming in 4 weeks. We are also rolling out a manpower cut of 20%.

But it's November!!! We can't meet that number even if we all go home! And I just hired some people to replace the last group you turfed!

That is your problem......


Next is regulations. I've come to think that regulators are fundamentally engineers who couldn't cut it in the real world or more likely were not willing to move to where the work was. They never get any real experience actually doing what they regulate. They become regulators who make new rules without regard to what works, what the interrelated requirements are and then they set timelines that are totally unrealistic too. Unfortunately, you can't sell something that doesn't meet the law so stuff changes at the last minute without going through the proper processes. It's like throwing a hand grenade in the works. Everybody scrambles to accommodate and royal blue shit happens. Internal systems get redesigned on an emergency basis and even entire engines get stuffed into a body that was never intended to accept them.

The other big one is market shifts. One day everyone likes economy cars and the next day they all want sports cars. The fads come and go and so do the successes and failures. You spend years trying to design and build what the market wants today, and then weeks trying to change it at the last minute.

I'd get into politics and bad management. But,.... I'm sure you get the drift.

The engineer has a family, cares about their safety and yours too, cares about the environment, wants to create products that buyers will love, and wants them to last forever. If only the world would let them.....

 

[Chicken lights]

Sometimes I wonder if some of new cars are engineered to be difficult to work on to drive up service prices when things start to fail. Anybody with some sort of lifting device could pull a engine out of a pre 90's car. For example early Mustang:
Driveshaft: 4 fasteners
Crossmember :2
Engine mounts : 2
Rad & hoses: 6
Exhaust: 4-8
So < 20 fasteners and engine and transmission are ready to lift out

A friend of mind has a project truck I'm helping with, I flat out told him if he wants headers I'm done helping. I'll cobble e-brake cables and steering column rebuilds and fix wiring harnesses but no headers

And honestly if he went to aluminum heads but kept the manifolds he'd save weight and gain performance without headers

 

[Susquatch]

flat out told him if he wants headers I'm done helping.

He sounds like he works in marketing!

 

[Dan Dubeau]

Yep. Takes a week to prep to remove an old machine. Very limited travel room. Takes a week to prep for the new machine. Can't move a single thing to disrupt production even for safety reasons. Get the truck in and out ASAP and get them off the property. Or at least that's my experience too

Yep, only we don't take liberties with the safety stuff. Occasionally you need to colour outside if the lines a bit....but

In the auto industry, it used to be that every manufacturer's processes were different. I started in that Era. But through the years the systems changed radically. Some manufacturers use different approaches, but they are all still very similar.

In the old days, you designed it to work first, then refined it for life expectations based on testing, then refined it again for service, and last for manufacturing. So it was quite the opposite of what you might think.

Today, all the processes are looked after simultaneously.

Serviceability and manufacturing are all part of the simultaneous design process. CAE (Computer Aided Engineering) systems include suppliers, manufacturing, and serviceability processes as part of the deal from the git-go. In fact, even the construction or modification of the assembly plant itself is part of the CAE process of designing a part or a vehicle. When a design is finally done, everything around it is also done. That way the last stage of production implimentation, final tooling, and service instructions are all ready to go with job one.

There are three huge wrinkles in the process.

The biggest of all is cost. The market goes soft, or the shareholder isn't happy, or some external factor becomes a dictator. The bean counters take control, departments get gutted, experts get retired, budgets get slashed, new management gives new orders and new priorities, and shit happens. My biggest complaint is the demand for budget and cost cuts without justification or even analysis.

Your budget just got cut by 20% - no ifs ands or buts. Just figure out how to do it. And there is another 10% cut coming in 4 weeks. We are also rolling out a manpower cut of 20%.

But it's November!!! We can't meet that number even if we all go home! And I just hired some people to replace the last group you turfed!

That is your problem......


Next is regulations. I've come to think that regulators are fundamentally engineers who couldn't cut it in the real world or more likely were not willing to move to where the work was. They never get any real experience actually doing what they regulate. They become regulators who make new rules without regard to what works, what the interrelated requirements are and then they set timelines that are totally unrealistic too. Unfortunately, you can't sell something that doesn't meet the law so stuff changes at the last minute without going through the proper processes. It's like throwing a hand grenade in the works. Everybody scrambles to accommodate and royal blue shit happens. Internal systems get redesigned on an emergency basis and even entire engines get stuffed into a body that was never intended to accept them.

The other big one is market shifts. One day everyone likes economy cars and the next day they all want sports cars. The fads come and go and so do the successes and failures. You spend years trying to design and build what the market wants today, and then weeks trying to change it at the last minute.

I'd get into politics and bad management. But,.... I'm sure you get the drift.

The engineer has a family, cares about their safety and yours too, cares about the environment, wants to create products that buyers will love, and wants them to last forever. If only the world would let them.....

Great reply. My perspective was always from the revision side of parts production, where they were mostly changing stuff to make assembly easier. Or parts cheaper....As always, there's always more to it than what seems.

 

[JustaDB]

Contrast that to...

...an '07 Dodge T&C minivan where you need to pull the intake manifold to change spark plugs. Un-GD-believable. So, instead of changing 1 @$16 or whatever the hell it is, you change the entire set of 6 'cause you don't wanna have to take the intake off again in 6 months or a year.

Some days I just want to slap some of these idiots...

 

[gjestico]

Interesting thread. Somehow the title doesnt match the last few pages LoL.

Soooo, about real estate agents, Last of my parents passed away a couple years ago. Older house on a 20,000 ft lot, In a nice semi rural area, South Van Island BC. Oh , and a 1700 sft steel framed shop that my Dad built. Would be the dream shop for any DIY guy be it cars, woodwork, welding etc. The agent who got the deal to sell it wasnt interested in the shop at all. Said it was a liability for the majority of buyers. Moved straight to looking for a developer who would buy the place and subdivide. Reall got me steamed.

 

[David]

Interesting thread. Somehow the title doesnt match the last few pages LoL.

Soooo, about real estate agents, Last of my parents passed away a couple years ago. Older house on a 20,000 ft lot, In a nice semi rural area, South Van Island BC. Oh , and a 1700 sft steel framed shop that my Dad built. Would be the dream shop for any DIY guy be it cars, woodwork, welding etc. The agent who got the deal to sell it wasnt interested in the shop at all. Said it was a liability for the majority of buyers. Moved straight to looking for a developer who would buy the place and subdivide. Reall got me steamed.

Oh man, that would have been my dream!

 

[Susquatch]

...an '07 Dodge T&C minivan where you need to pull the intake manifold to change spark plugs. Un-GD-believable. So, instead of changing 1 @$16 or whatever the hell it is, you change the entire set of 6 'cause you don't wanna have to take the intake off again in 6 months or a year.

Some days I just want to slap some of these idiots...

Ya, I got stone rolled with that one too. My son has a Jeep with that engine in it. Not just Spark Plugs under there, there is also a stupid plastic oil cooler under that manifold too. And why all the special tools - an inverse Torx screw? I've never seen so many reasons to be pissed off! So it's easy for me to understand how others feel.

But the other side of that story is that the company was being run by a financial outfit focussed on asset stripping during that time. The owners didn't give a rats ass about the product. Lord knows what other kind of damage they did. That engine was probably just a minor outcome of that fiasco. Car companies shouldn't be run by financial people let alone those hell bent on stripping the value out and leaving an empty carcass. Actually, that whole concept should be illegal in my view.

 

[historicalarms]

Contrast that to
A headlight replacement on the GMC and Chevy trucks requires you to remove the entire bumper, and the washer fluid reservoir, and the cowling on top, and on some models part of the inner fender. Buicks I turn away after having to remove the entire subframe to perform a spark plug change on a Lucerne.

I knew my first rant was way too short....now you reminded me of the rest ....second day at school they learn to author the "flat rate repair manual" before they even start the build.

 

[Bandit]

Well @Susquatch, I don’t know how that jeep engine came to be, but the end result should have been some people and likely a few computers being sent to the crusher and not recycled. Rockers with poor/bad bearings, that dammed plastic oil cooler hiding under the intake manifold, and 3 spark plugs hiding under the manifold too, the oil cooler also has the problem oil filler on it, along with the oil pressure sender and the temperature sender.
That’s even before we get to the 2 oil gallery’s in each head, that have threaded plugs in them that are often loose from day one resulting in low oil pressure, that’s if they don’t fall out!
Man, I have to stop now! This is a short list of what I delt with, to say nothing of the many varied electric connectors that were different from one another, in how they came apart!
That was a lot of head shaking, word combining, and finally not looking for further problems with that engine. Yes, it does run, and still is running, but I don’t think I can cross enough fingers and toes for it to be a long lived engine.

 

[terry_g]

That is why I prefer working on class 7 and 8 trucks and machinery. Don't get me wrong they have their engineering marvels as well.

 

[Chicken lights]

That is why I prefer working on class 7 and 8 trucks and machinery. Don't get me wrong they have their engineering marvels as well.

My two gripes are a brace right in front of the oil fill hole, and the washer fluid fill hole is facing the wrong way, up against the firewall. Still better than my buddys freigtliner, he said you have to go into the sleeper to fill the washer fluid

 

[slow-poke]

One thing I just don't understand is why someone would purchase a vehicle that makes the top 10 least reliable cars on the Consumer Reports annual car report?

Some of these cars make that list year after year for a decade.

One thing I do understand is why it's getting to the point that every 4th car on the road is either a Toyota or Honda. So I guess a segment of society does some homework before spending 30+k of their hard earned money.

 

[terry_g]

The smaller International trucks with the inline six international engine have one or two pressure sensors under the valve cover that are prone to failure. To get the valve cover off you have to remove the seats and door frame trim and roll the floor mat back remove the transmission shifter and cup holder then remove a panel on the firewall and take it out from inside the cab. That is after you removed an intercooler and plumbing from the valve cover as well as the trough from the bottom of the windshield and the wiper transmission. About eight hours depending what has been installed in the cab. Once the valve cover is out it takes about three minutes to replace the sensors.

 

[Downwindtracker2]

I'm 76 and I have seen a dramatic climate change in my lifetime. I grew up and still live in the Lower Mainland of BC, the suburbs of Vancouver. It's in the temperate marine climate zone. Marine means the ocean controls it. It goes from northern California to the Alaska pan handle. What really twigged me was a passing comment by a simple sports radio talk show host, "We use to have one good simmer in three, now we have three out of four." He was right. As a kid growing up, summer weather was very important. A lot of years our summer weather cool , cloudy drizzle. We could count on two weeks of summer, the last week of July and the first week of August. And that was it.As young boys,we would still go swimming in an unheated park pool. The lifeguards all wore sweat suits. Now we expect fine weather from the beginning of May to the end of September. We don't always get it, but we expect it. If we don't get it we complain. That expectation is more telling than anything a scientist warns us about.

In a crew of 10, there was always a slacker. As the foreman, he was the first guy to get a lay off. I don't think we should be that slacker.

I see electricity as a driver of carbon pollution. How much of it is generated by thermal coal ? And that energy is used to make those new EVs. I've read natural gas is 20x cleaner than coal.