Busy Bee Lathe CX707 First Impressions and Value

[Former Member]

Not really - At such large purchase you need to only pay extra fuel to and from border. Plus maybe around $25 USD. I know gas is expensive but lets not get ahead of ourselves here, not that expensive.

So it adds about 200 CAD plus whole day. That would be like 4% or so.

I would agree, 4-6% (I do it regularly but don't forget you still pay taxes and duties if applicable). The problem is most don't have a US shipping address to ship to.

 

[Tom Kitta]

I would agree, 4-6% (I do it regularly but don't forget you still pay taxes and duties if applicable). The problem is most don't have a US shipping address to ship to.

Oh there is a place near Sweet Grass that gives you US address for free but you have to pay for items that arrive. Going there to pick up few packages not worth it from Calgary - but lathe is big enough.

Also there is a company, I never used, that will transport from Sweet Grass to Calgary for a fee. Not sure how much for a lathe or if they could even do something that big.

 

[SomeGuy]

Not really - At such large purchase you need to only pay extra fuel to and from border. Plus maybe around $25 USD. I know gas is expensive but lets not get ahead of ourselves here, not that expensive.

So it adds about 200 CAD plus whole day. That would be like 4% or so.

Uh, driving down to the states to pick it up, isn't really the same as getting it here. Ship it cross border, pay all the duties/brokerage/taxes/exchange/whatever on all of that...it adds up.

 

[Tom Kitta]

Uh, driving down to the states to pick it up, isn't really the same as getting it here. Ship it cross border, pay all the duties/brokerage/taxes/exchange/whatever on all of that...it adds up.

If you pick it up yourself there is no brokerage fee. Just GST. Its machinery so there should be no duty. You have to pay same GST as in Canada. You will not have industry certificate for Canada - but for hobby machine its not an issue.

 

[SomeGuy]

If you pick it up yourself there is no brokerage fee. Just GST. Its machinery so there should be no duty. You have to pay same GST as in Canada. You will not have industry certificate for Canada - but for hobby machine its not an issue.

US machine, SHIPPED to your door in Canada, add 10-20%. Even then, with cost of time, fuel and vehicle wear, that's easily $500+ ...unless of course you don't value your time.

 

[Tom Kitta]

US machine, SHIPPED to your door in Canada, add 10-20%. Even then, with cost of time, fuel and vehicle wear, that's easily $500+ ...unless of course you don't value your time.

If one was to value one's time more then minimum wage in this, one would, IMHO, get far and wide better machine. For cheap machine like this, one could also do what other members have done - get it directly from China.

 

[Rauce]

Ya, too funny.

For everyone else reading this, I like how it turned out by reaching out to @Degen off line. Much easier to understand each others mindset than what would probably become an argument here. My thanks to @Dabbler for teaching me that lesson.

On the surface, it looks like @Degen and I disagree about the differences between a BB 707 and a Griz 750. I no longer think we do. It is just a matter of degrees. Let's put it this way. A loaded Ford Raptor is still a Ford pickup just with a lot of different options. I think the two lathes are very different because of all the different features, he thinks they are basically the same with a lot of different features.

That discussion led to some interesting talk about how they do this. If we assume that the same outfit makes grizzly lathes and busy bee lathes and king lathes and pm lathes and and and..... Then we can prolly assume they make them for similar outfits in Europe, middle East, South America, Africa, and India too. There might be a hundred companies all over the world selling the same basic lathes under different brand names with different guts, parts, and standard equipment. Yet they are all similar with some common parts and some common castings and common accessories.

So we found ourselves wondering how that Chinese outfit does all this. How does a Craftex CX 707 come to be? (from cradle to market) And how much do those different steps cost? What does their product development group look like? What does their sales group look like? And how do they deal with customers in their own country? In other words, what is their overall business model and where is their business model going in say 10 years from now?

Back to all of you for input, opinions, and thoughts - if you are interested.

My semi-educated guess is that the supply chain is a bit more complicated than that. There’s probably a number of outfits selling lathes like this for export. These companies are mostly doing final fit and assembly of the machines and they’re buying the electronics, controls, gears, castings etc. from the same pool of suppliers as the other companies doing the same thing, leading to a lot of similarities.

On the other end, there’s a spreadsheet jockey at Busy Bee or Grizzly HQ making decisions about what price points they want to hit with their machines and figuring out what priorities they have for the specifications based on the options their suppliers are giving them and what they think their customers want.

I used to be one of those spreadsheet jockeys (albeit in a different industry) which why I’d say my guess is semi-educated.

 

[Tom Kitta]

My semi-educated guess is that the supply chain is a bit more complicated than that. There’s probably a number of outfits selling lathes like this for export. These companies are mostly doing final fit and assembly of the machines and they’re buying the electronics, controls, gears, castings etc. from the same pool of suppliers as the other companies doing the same thing, leading to a lot of similarities.

On the other end, there’s a spreadsheet jockey at Busy Bee or Grizzly HQ making decisions about what price points they want to hit with their machines and figuring out what priorities they have for the specifications based on the options their suppliers are giving them and what they think their customers want.

I used to be one of those spreadsheet jockeys (albeit in a different industry) which why I’d say my guess is semi-educated.

Exactly. And Busy Bee mostly competes on price point, not quality. This is somewhat true of Grizzly as well - but they have been trying to create a "premium" line for a while.

Chinese make "crap" because Americans want cheap stuff - the buyer dictates what is made. And AFAIK in China you either race to the bottom price wise or make quality stuff - there is not much "middle".

 

[Former Member]

Lets not get too off track here. I import directly from the US and do it for my business, and no I don't pay myself minimum wage. I consolidate my shipments and I pay for my US address. Even during COVID I was crossing regular, essential service exemption, actually it was safer than dealing with idiots here, but thats another story and shouldn't be on this forum.

As to BB CX707 all I can say is I am truly impressed with the over all quality, yes I can see where the cost savings are, but truly not where it counts. I also have a Craftex CT054 which I have upgraded considerably and will likely do more. It sees lots of use, so much so a serious CNC upgrade was done. Again yes it has flaws but for the price and what 99.9% do far exceeds your requirements (btw the lathe is a better build).

Compared to my old Logan Model 200 (or any Myford or other old desired machine out there), the cheap modern China machines are light years ahead even if the old machines where brand new.

Now where does the CX707 sit, heavy duty hobbiest or light duty commercial, precise enough to do almost anything.

After seeing the difference between new and used even today the price for good machines is not that much more, I'll look at new as I know at least I'll have some recourse at the onset to ensure its up to par and at least I know that user caused wear and problems are caused by me.

 

[Tom Kitta]

As to BB CX707 all I can say is I am truly impressed with the over all quality, yes I can see where the cost savings are, but truly not where it counts. I also have a Craftex CT054 which I have upgraded considerably and will likely do more. It sees lots of use, so much so a serious CNC upgrade was done. Again yes it has flaws but for the price and what 99.9% do far exceeds your requirements (btw the lathe is a better build).

Compared to my old Logan Model 200 (or any Myford or other old desired machine out there), the cheap modern China machines are light years ahead even if the old machines where brand new.

Now where does the CX707 sit, heavy duty hobbiest or light duty commercial, precise enough to do almost anything.

After seeing the difference between new and used even today the price for good machines is not that much more, I'll look at new as I know at least I'll have some recourse at the onset to ensure its up to par and at least I know that user caused wear and problems are caused by me.

What is important is that you are happy as you are the customer.

Through I say that comparing MyFord to CX707 is a bit unfair - MyFord is a small step over a mini lathe. The Super may be bigger step over mini lathe. But in no way and shape and form it can compete with modern 12x36. Don't ask me why Myford super 7 is frequently over 5000 - collectors value I guess. Investment?

Not sure about Logan - but as far as I know these were economy lathes - looks bigger then MyFord. I only briefly used MyFord so have an opinion.

But take luxury old iron, such as my Chipmaster 10 x 20 and it will dance circles around any Busy Bee 10 x 22 lathe cx706. They are not even close. I mean my lathe has faster spindle at 3000 rpm with infinite speeds as well as it has 3hp mated to weight that is over 4x cx706.

Certainly there are Taiwan made lathes that exceed my Chipmaster in performance at that size level - but BB does not sell them. And they are not cheap.

Or maybe to put it the other way - if your 12x36 was moved back to say 1950s and it used generator for say smooth speed control it would never be seen by anyone as "economy" lathe in the Atlas / Logan etc. category. Also certainly it would not be "model makers". It would be a higher end lathe where most pp would wonder why they skimped on metal. It would probably cost around 3x as much as brand new 1950s MyFord. At least that is what I am guessing.

 

[Former Member]

Part of this thread discusses the similarities (if not identicalness of different products from different sources).

The BB and the PM lathe are identical other that coolant and rounded main gear cover. Lower castings and carriage components are truly identical. As to internals and components used to achieve the price point who knows.

 

[StevSmar]

When I purchased my Precision Matthews PM-1224T, I toyed with picking it up in the US and bringing it back to Winnipeg.

I would have needed to rent or borrow a pickup truck etc. etc. Probably the largest factor was that I’d never lifted a 900lb object and I wasn’t too keen at having my first try at this being getting a large heavy box off the back of a rented or borrowed vehicle.

So I decided to have it shipped to my garage. PM did the brokerage which was about $90US (1.5 years ago). I still feel the shipping direct to my garage was money well spent.

 

[Former Member]

One of the most important things I made for the lathe (sadly lacking) is a longer chuck key. The longest one that comes with it just barely clears the headstock and easily causes scrapped knuckles. Now that I've made a longer key I've got more clearance and no more bloody knuckles.

 

[whydontu]

An explanation on Chinese lathes. It’s not that they’re all made in the same factory, it’s more that they’re all made from basically the same designs. My understanding is immediately after the revolution and formation of the PRC, eighteen companies were initiated to develop an industrial base. Their role was to design machinery to reduce China’s dependence on having to import manufacturing machinery from other countries.

One of the goals was to become self-sufficient in manufacturing. Most towns became capable of making their own domestic items like pots and pans, stoves, items that can be produced in small scale batches in relatively simple foundries and machine shops. The machinery to do this had to be robust, easy to manufacture, and standardized. Our 7x12, 8x16, 9x19, etc lathes are all variations on standardized design.

The smaller machines were developed for use at schoools to train future machinists.

With no copyright or patents, so anyone could copy or modify the basic design to suit the manufacturing plants’ capabilities.

End of lecture 47b.

Tendtool

www.tendtool.com

 

[Former Member]

I got another measuring device completed. A flat disc to tram in the mill. In terms of accuracy I measured difference of 0.00000 at 3 equally spaced points with a mitutoyo digital micrometer. I was hoping for a 2-10ths the last digit is 1/2 a 10th, so I am impressed.

While I would love to say I'm exceptionally skilled, I pass on the credit to the Lathe. And this was done a 3 jaw chuck with little prep.

 

[Susquatch]

Sounds like maybe you are making a mill tramming plate like the one I am working on....

Thread 'Spindle square' https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/spindle-square.4225/

The entire thread is worth reading, but my disk idea is quite a bit down in the thread. I didn't bother making my own disk yet. A disk brake Rotor is a cheap and perfect alternative.