BRONZE CANON BARREL CASTING

[Tmyatt]

Not sure if this is the correct place however it certainly fits in with metal working. Many years ago, actually decades, a number of friends and I thought it would be fun to build a miniature canon. Having contacts in the foundry business we proceeded to make a pattern and have a number of canon barrels cast in iron. I believe we cast 6 and they are now spread out around the country. We also cast one in bronze and it has been sitting by my Logan lathe for the past 40 years. One of those projects that "I will get around to it, one day". That day has never come and if it sits around much longer, it could very well end up in an estate sale. Having said that, is there any interest these days in making miniature canons and if so what would one reasonably expect to pay for a bronze casting? Length is 17" and weighs in at just over 32 pounds. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks

 

[DPittman]

Very much appropriate topic for forum.

Sorry I can't offer much help on value other than it would be highly dependent on individual and their ambitions.

I would guess if such a thing was commercially available a casting like that would likely be well over $100?

While I think the casting would be a very cool project, I personally could not justifying paying over maybe $30.

 

[Jayham]

I certainly have an interest in making a cannon. No idea where I would start.

As for price I cannot provide and accurate assessment. But for the size, weight and material and rarity would be in it favour.

 

[Chicken lights]

Not sure if this is the correct place however it certainly fits in with metal working. Many years ago, actually decades, a number of friends and I thought it would be fun to build a miniature canon. Having contacts in the foundry business we proceeded to make a pattern and have a number of canon barrels cast in iron. I believe we cast 6 and they are now spread out around the country. We also cast one in bronze and it has been sitting by my Logan lathe for the past 40 years. One of those projects that "I will get around to it, one day". That day has never come and if it sits around much longer, it could very well end up in an estate sale. Having said that, is there any interest these days in making miniature canons and if so what would one reasonably expect to pay for a bronze casting? Length is 17" and weighs in at just over 32 pounds. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks

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I'll do you the favour of taking that off your hands, I'd hate to see you burdened any longer by hanging onto this. It must weigh heavily on the mind, after all

It's probably worth +/- $200, but there likely aren't that many guys looking for one, and shipping would likely get pricey

 

[Tom O]

Where is it located that would probably make it easier for people to decide.

 

[Former Member]

The bronze alone makes it very valuable, ask Metal Supermarket what bronze costs (about 4-5 times wholesale).

 

[6.5 Fan]

There is always some interest in cannons and the making of them, i think there is a dedicated cannon forum. I have an aluminum barrel that an old fellow cast and gave me one, not to make a functioning cannon though. Quite a few guys make golf ball canons from steel, usually seamless tubing.
No idea what a bronze barrel would be worth but at the price of bronze it won't be cheap.

 

[historicalarms]

Really really dont want to put a damper on anybody that wants to make a cannon but there are both legal and safety pitfalls (especially with a cast cannon).
The legal pitfalls to cannoneering arose on May 1st 2020 when the govt announced an "order In Council" that prohibited a lot of toys, anything with a bore of larger than 20 mmm( .787" )or can generate more than 10,000 jules of force at the muzzle. Because of the ambiguity of the firearms branch of govt, we cannot get a solid written position on cannon ownership from them. the way the "OIC" is written, it might interest every person on this forum, even the ones that have no interest in the sport shooting aspect of the forum, that for every one of you that even drill a hole of .787" or larger you have created a prohibited weapon and could be subject to criminal charges....a Ludacris statement you may say...then read the OIC and tell me where there is a dispensation for machinist to drill common holes....there quite simply is none.
The second pitfall is the 10,000 jules of force part of the document. I can create that much force with a .30 cal bored unit...and here is the pitfall that any of us haveing a piece of 3/4 inch pipe beside our shop....the document clearly states "capable of producing" ( and that OIC is a legal document presentable in court, not legislated as other laws are, just signed into being), that word "capable" makes every piece of pipe we own makes us subject to the prosecution of any willing prosecutor.

The old cannon controls were a grey area in firearms law and it was more or less regulated that if a tube was fuse or loose powder fired , it fell under an antique category, if primer fired it was considered same as any firearm.
I have several cannons from desktop size mortars& field pieces to very full sized civil war replicas in my yard and they all, every one of them can be fuse fired....and considering all the above...would I build another, you bet!!
The other consideration to consider very seriously on any "cast" tube that you plan on using in a cannon fashion is that casting has long been considered as the least viable way to make a cannon because of the undetectable voids that a casting can have...even BP pressures ( easily attainable to 28,000 psi) can be enough to turn a tube with an occlusion into a grenade .
Modern heavy-wall seamless /DOM steel tubing much better.

 

[Proxule]

I would be more interested in discussing the source of proper FFF powder and the ball - Or is this a static display model only?

Nice work - Shame it was never finished!
Thanks for posting!

 

[Proxule]

I have several cannons from desktop size mortars& field pieces to very full sized civil war replicas in my yard and they all, every one of them can be fuse fired....and considering all the above...would I build another, you bet!!

My man!!

 

[YotaBota]

"capable of producing"

That's it,,,,, all you guys with 3D printers are going to jail because they are "capable" of producing weapons!

I think I'd keep it and let the estate deal with it later (hopefully much later), sit back and enjoy how cool it is just hanging on the wall.

 

[Tmyatt]

Thanks everyone fore their comments. In answer to the question of location, I am in eastern Ontario between Kingston and Ottawa. As one member said, "at the price of bronze it won't be cheap" and another suggested I could contact The Metal Supermarket to get some idea of price. Checking on-line (they would need to provide a quote for anything bigger than 2" diameter) a 2" piece of bronze rod 18" long was just over $500 !!!!! One member suggested a price range of $200 +/- for the casting and before my original post, I had thought of something in the $250 range. As far as legality is concerned and while it may be considered an antique as the charge is ignited with loose powder through a touch hole, I don't think we ever thought of that when we cast and made the iron barrels decades ago but we have never fired a projectile from any of the canons we built. There were fired occasionally at family celebrations and get togethers with some black powder and toilet paper for wadding. The kids loved it. If someone wanted to build one today and really didn't want to fire it they could simply not drill a touch hole. With regards to a source of FFF powder, we used F or FF as it burned slower which I believe created less pressure. Because it burned slower, there was a lot of flame exiting the muzzle and was quite a spectacle at night. The bore was 1" although, as I said, we never fired a projectile. On a final note, I would prefer not to have the estate deal with it. My better half is worried that should I go first she will have to deal with all my "stuff". Disposing of my metal lathe or metal shaper, plus all my bother assorted tools would be a lot easier than a bronze canon barrel casting. On the other hand I guess someone could use it as an anchor that would never rust but that would be a real shame.

 

[Matt-Aburg]

Thanks everyone fore their comments. In answer to the question of location, I am in eastern Ontario between Kingston and Ottawa. As one member said, "at the price of bronze it won't be cheap" and another suggested I could contact The Metal Supermarket to get some idea of price. Checking on-line (they would need to provide a quote for anything bigger than 2" diameter) a 2" piece of bronze rod 18" long was just over $500 !!!!! One member suggested a price range of $200 +/- for the casting and before my original post, I had thought of something in the $250 range. As far as legality is concerned and while it may be considered an antique as the charge is ignited with loose powder through a touch hole, I don't think we ever thought of that when we cast and made the iron barrels decades ago but we have never fired a projectile from any of the canons we built. There were fired occasionally at family celebrations and get togethers with some black powder and toilet paper for wadding. The kids loved it. If someone wanted to build one today and really didn't want to fire it they could simply not drill a touch hole. With regards to a source of FFF powder, we used F or FF as it burned slower which I believe created less pressure. Because it burned slower, there was a lot of flame exiting the muzzle and was quite a spectacle at night. The bore was 1" although, as I said, we never fired a projectile. On a final note, I would prefer not to have the estate deal with it. My better half is worried that should I go first she will have to deal with all my "stuff". Disposing of my metal lathe or metal shaper, plus all my bother assorted tools would be a lot easier than a bronze canon barrel casting. On the other hand I guess someone could use it as an anchor that would never rust but that would be a real shame.

If you really want to sell this, I might be interested. I can offer you 400..

 

[Tmyatt]

If you really want to sell this, I might be interested. I can offer you 400..

My wife would tell you I never really want to get rid of anything but at my age reality is starting to set in and yes, I would consider selling. On the rare occasion I do sell something, I try to price the item at a reasonable price for both the buyer and the seller. Until a forum member suggested I price bronze bar, as I mentioned I had considered something around the $250 mark but finding 18" of 2" bronze round bar at over $500 left me believing that I had misjudged the value. Having said that, $400 is more realistic however assuming you are in Ontario and with respect, would you consider $500 delivery included? Should you wish to contact me directly, my email address is [email protected]. I look forward to hearing back from you at your earliest convenience. Thanks,

Tom

 

[Tmyatt]

If you really want to sell this, I might be interested. I can offer you 400..

Well, I ended up in the emerge Sunday night. The good news is there won't be an estate sale any time soon but, given the hospital wait time, I had lots of time to look back on my emails etc and lots of time to think. Looking at your reply and my prior response, I got to thinking what am I doing just thinking about selling the bronze casting and why am I nickle and diming? Having said that, it is for sale. I am not sure if you are still interested but your offer is reasonable should you wish to follow up. Let me know one way ot the other. I can also be reached at [email protected].

Tom

 

[DPittman]

Well, I ended up in the emerge Sunday night. The good news is there won't be an estate sale any time soon but, given the hospital wait time, I had lots of time to look back on my emails etc and lots of time to think. Looking at your reply and my prior response, I got to thinking what am I doing just thinking about selling the bronze casting and why am I nickle and diming? Having said that, it is for sale. I am not sure if you are still interested but your offer is reasonable should you wish to follow up. Let me know one way ot the other. I can also be reached at [email protected].

Tom

I hope your health concerns get attention and remedied. ER visits are no fun.

 

[Matt-Aburg]

Well, I ended up in the emerge Sunday night. The good news is there won't be an estate sale any time soon but, given the hospital wait time, I had lots of time to look back on my emails etc and lots of time to think. Looking at your reply and my prior response, I got to thinking what am I doing just thinking about selling the bronze casting and why am I nickle and diming? Having said that, it is for sale. I am not sure if you are still interested but your offer is reasonable should you wish to follow up. Let me know one way ot the other. I can also be reached at [email protected].

Tom

Hi Tom,

I hope you recover well. I have not got back to you yet on this casting because something big came up here also. I will need a bit of time to sort this one out.. If anyone else would like to buy the casting, feel free to discuss with Tom.

 

[Tmyatt]

Thanks for getting back to me and I am in no hurry. It is a unique iten and I have had it for over 40 years and my prognosis is good but the pressure is on to start downsizing. I often say to my kids, "just think, one day this will all be yours" and they just shake their heads. My biggest fear is that when I step off this planet, my wife will sell my tools for what I told her I paid for them! Tom

 

[mbond]

Really really dont want to put a damper on anybody that wants to make a cannon but there are both legal and safety pitfalls (especially with a cast cannon).
The legal pitfalls to cannoneering arose on May 1st 2020 when the govt announced an "order In Council" that prohibited a lot of toys, anything with a bore of larger than 20 mmm( .787" )or can generate more than 10,000 jules of force at the muzzle. Because of the ambiguity of the firearms branch of govt, we cannot get a solid written position on cannon ownership from them. the way the "OIC" is written, it might interest every person on this forum, even the ones that have no interest in the sport shooting aspect of the forum, that for every one of you that even drill a hole of .787" or larger you have created a prohibited weapon and could be subject to criminal charges....a Ludacris statement you may say...then read the OIC and tell me where there is a dispensation for machinist to drill common holes....there quite simply is none.
The second pitfall is the 10,000 jules of force part of the document. I can create that much force with a .30 cal bored unit...and here is the pitfall that any of us haveing a piece of 3/4 inch pipe beside our shop....the document clearly states "capable of producing" ( and that OIC is a legal document presentable in court, not legislated as other laws are, just signed into being), that word "capable" makes every piece of pipe we own makes us subject to the prosecution of any willing prosecutor.

The old cannon controls were a grey area in firearms law and it was more or less regulated that if a tube was fuse or loose powder fired , it fell under an antique category, if primer fired it was considered same as any firearm.
I have several cannons from desktop size mortars& field pieces to very full sized civil war replicas in my yard and they all, every one of them can be fuse fired....and considering all the above...would I build another, you bet!!
The other consideration to consider very seriously on any "cast" tube that you plan on using in a cannon fashion is that casting has long been considered as the least viable way to make a cannon because of the undetectable voids that a casting can have...even BP pressures ( easily attainable to 28,000 psi) can be enough to turn a tube with an occlusion into a grenade .
Modern heavy-wall seamless /DOM steel tubing much better.

I am new here, but just a couple of thoughts

It is a small point, but Joules are a unit of energy. The force that is exerted on the metal is proportional to the time over which that energy is dissipated - the power. That power will be unevenly distributed across the section and length of the barrel. The most likely time for a failure of this type of gun is during its first firing. The metal becomes strain hardened with further use. This is especially important because explosion is an impulse load, and casting, unlike rolling or forging, does not introduce strain in the grain structure of the blank.

That's all without the need for unseen voids which obviously make the situation much worse. Ultra sound and x-ray equipment can detect those, but I have never seen that attempted outside of the aviation industry as it is _very_ expensive

All that being said, it is very cool and I wish I had one!

 

[Tom O]

Thanks for getting back to me and I am in no hurry. It is a unique iten and I have had it for over 40 years and my prognosis is good but the pressure is on to start downsizing. I often say to my kids, "just think, one day this will all be yours" and they just shake their heads. My biggest fear is that when I step off this planet, my wife will sell my tools for what I told her I paid for them! Tom

Tell her that machinery is lIke a house it goes up over time.