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CA-ON Bentone 34 or other “organophilic” clay?

Ontario
Type
Supplies
Ogmios Forge

Ogmios Forge

Member
Hi folks,

I know this to be elusive, but I’m looking for a non-industrial quantity (i.e 1-5 pounds maybe?) of Bentone 34, or other organophilic clay, ideally from a source in Southern Ontario. For those that don’t know, it acts as a binder in oil-based casting sands, like Petrobond or Kbond.

I found one or two other references to Bentone here on the site, but nothing too detailed about a reliable source.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks
 
Johnwa said:
I might have some Bentone 910.
Click to expand...
Hello Johnwa. Thanks for the response. I think 910 is used as a drilling lubricant, or something like that, yes? A quick search online also suggests (based on MSDS’s I saw) that it is a carcinogen? Sorry, not to cause any panic, as I am certainly no expert, but that’s what a quick search online indicated.
 
I did get if from a drilling supplier. I believe it is the silica content that may be carcinogenic. Bentone 34 has the same warning. I do know that it forms a gel with oil. Just mixing it with sand didn’t work. I never did get a chance to try it in a muller.
 
From what I’ve read online, there appear to be two key elements to make it work:
1. Using a muller is almost a necessity; and
2. When you have mixed the sand, bentone and oil, in appropriate portions, you must then add a catalyst (can be isopropyl alcohol from the drug store, propylene carbonate, or methyl hydrate), that facilitates the clay’s absorption of the oil and/or it sticking to the sand particles.
 
Johnwa said:
I did get if from a drilling supplier. I believe it is the silica content that may be carcinogenic. Bentone 34 has the same warning. I do know that it forms a gel with oil. Just mixing it with sand didn’t work. I never did get a chance to try it in a muller.
Click to expand...
I’m interested too. Which supplier did you get it from? @Tobho Mott is looking for some too. I’ve only played with a small sample qty. and used it to rejuvenate my petrobond.
To be honest @Ogmios Forge I’d be more worried about the fumes coming of the k-Bond or Petrobond.
I’m about ready to switch to greensand because of the stink…
 
I’m not positive, but I think it was Bre Chem supply. They have several locations in western Canada. I got it in Blackfalds Ab. I split the bag with a couple of members from the AMEN group in Edmonton. I don’t know whether they had any luck with it.
 
Its gotta be easier to buy than to make... but you can make it :P

Weigh 600g Zhejiang Anji bentonite raw ore powder, disperse in hydrochloric acid aqueous solution (30ml concentrated HCl, 1.8L water) under stirring condition, stir well, let stand at room temperature and soak for 2d, press filter and dehydrate, add 5L water to the filter cake to make slurry, Add 15.1g of sodium fluoride and 1g of tannic acid, stir for 1h at room temperature, centrifuge, and take the supernatant; heat the suspension to 50-80°C, add quaternary ammonium salt modifier, stir at constant temperature for 1h, wash, press Filtrate and dehydrate to obtain a waxy body, dry at 85°C, and pulverize to 200 mesh to obtain organobentonite AJ-1.
Click to expand...

Just need some unscented cat litter and get added to "a list" ordering form some chem supply houses . Can sell as artisan benone :D

or just order a test sample ( 25kg minimum )
 
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OK, I may have some success to report…and I think the following is all accurate from a technical standpoint…

Aside from Petrobond 1 (Bentone 34), there was also Petrobond 2 (Bentone SD-1). Either one was added to sand and oil, to make oil-based casting sand. P2 though, was “self-catalyzing”, in that you didn’t have to also add a catalyzer (e.g. propylene carbonate) to the mix, to help it all bond together.

I found a company in the states that caters to painters, and sells an organoclay to the public in 500g packages for $18. They use it to thicken/stiffen oil paints, so it doesn’t run down the canvas. The interesting thing is, the specific organoclay that they used to sell was Bentone SD-1. I asked them, and the new product is reportedly the same material, just from another supplier (I assume in China?).

I have ordered some to experiment with, and will let you know how it goes…
 
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Hi Omigos Forge, I discovered your YouTube videos a few months ago, cool stuff. I've made a few bronze axes a few years ago but just to play with and take camping and stuff, not bronze age replicas like yours.

I have a friend in Sydenham ON who bought a bag of bentone-34 from a Canadian distributor for Elementis. He had to talk to a couple different salesmen, the first found out he was making molding sand and said sorry not my department. The second, he told he wasn't prepared to discuss his project yet and they let him pay minimum order price for a single bag. You don't want to know how much that bag cost but I suspect the minimum order might have been a pallet! Wish I'd met him before he ordered, I know a few guys who would have liked to get a bag or two of their own. I was able to trade some ferrosilicon for a small tub, like an ice cream tub size, but I've been too busy working on other projects to do anything with it yet. Have had a barrel of 130GFN olivine sitting in my shed waiting for me to find more for a couple years now, so I'll get to it soon.

A few years ago I convinced a company in Calgary to send me a a couple pound sample of VG-Plus, another organobentone, and was able to mix up about 40# of that olivine into K-bond, which work d really well but has since all disappeared into my petrobond. Then they found out I was interested in bags not pallets and stopped replying to my emails.

The best most recent tip I've received was from John P. at Foundry Supply Source in Milton, who said I might try contacting Canada Colors in Toronto (800) 461-1638. I haven't tried yet, but that's on my list too. Please let us know how it goes if you talk to them...

Good luck,

Jeff
 
Hi Tobho, thanks for the info! I’ve now received the product, and will be experimenting this weekend. I’m going to mix up a few small batches with fine silica sand and a few different oils (clear mineral, SAE30 non-detergent, and 2-cycle) and see how they work. Should have something more to say on Monday.

On a related note, I came across a Spanish company called Tolsa Group that makes a variety of organoclay powders. They don’t make any comments on uses in sand casting, but they do suggest which of their “Pangel” products can replace Bentone 34 and Bentone SD1. I tried sending them a question, but their website didn’t seem to accept input properly…will see if I can find an email for them…
 
If it's not too late, try to get the fully synthetic smokeless 2 cycle oil for your tests, based on recommendations from Tom Cobett.

Its main ingredient is supposed to be the elusive Indopol whatever it's called, the truly smokeless oil used by his class at Kent state that invented K-bond, but can only be bought by the barrel otherwise.

I don't really care about the smoke, so for mine the sae30 non detergent oil worked well, cheaper than the smokeless oil and the sand I made seemed to work just like beige petrobond.

Good luck, and looking forward to hearing the results!

Jeff
 
Sorry for butting my nose into elsewhere it belongs NOT, but I am courious from the outset, over the requested PRODUCT!

Is the application you are using this for A >>>style<<< of SANDCASTING ???

I ask, because I was once a Jeweler, in my younger years, I did MOSTLY lost wax casts both Centrifical& Vaccumm drawn casting.

I also was going to explore DELFT CLAY casting . . . which by all the information(s) I looked at for **organophilic clay** Sounds VERY SIMILAR !

You know us folks from South of the border just Must place our noses in the direction of a scent, so, DEFT CLAY an ultra Fine . . . is available from Rio Grande Jewelry supply, a 2 Kilgram bag,


Unknown shipping costs, etc ! ! ! ! And if it Tiz Not What you were speaking thereof, just kindly disregard this Neighbor from South of the Border, Aye What, off I go, nothing to see here, I'll be moving on, Tut Tut, Nothing to see or hear, move along said the bloke, speaking to himself in a Southern Dialect . . .

philip, from the Great Pacific NorthWET, Oregon, USA
 
Hi Philip.

My own plans are to produce a DIY petrobond-style sand, for casting bronze items. Sand is easy to find, and cheap. Oil is easy to find, and cheap. But as others have found, the challenging ingredient is the powdered organoclay (e.g. Bentone 34) that binds the oil and sand together, to give it green strength. Easy enough to find, but only if you can afford to buy a 50lb bag, and then typically shipping on top of that!

I am now testing an organoclay that I found online, and was able to order 500g at a time, for a very reasonable price. Could be what I’m looking for! But how will it perform as a binder in casting sand? Will be experimenting this weekend…

Patrick
 
Thank you!

I loved my Commercial Bronze Casting experiance: that was "why" I needed to upgrade to Vacumm Assisted CASTING, I cast parts for a very special Musical Valve, the parts finished were in the 5-8 gram weight range depending on one of the Three various parts each, designed with exquisite care:

In total, over 60 pounds of BRONZE Bars for smelting were purchased. (I still have several Slices Of that bronze, that I hope to machine ! ! ! ! )

I had the HONOR of working for Ora Ed Thayer, whose Patent was for the FIRST NEW design, since 1888 for Brass Music valves!!!

in my "Odds & Ends", I still have various parts that were >>>out of spec<<< due ONLY to being experianced MORE in Centrifical Casting, and the *Sprue Up* needs for that, Than in Vacumm Casting!

In all I cast multiple parts for 1500 Thayer Trombone Valves!

Circa 1995, whilst working, the phone would ring Mrs. Thayer would answer, walk out, WAIT without a Word, until Mr. Thayer would acknowledge he had "Finished" that work: He NEVER LOST CONCENTRATION, not once, that I ever saw . . . .

The call(s) could be from Zurich Switzerland, or Sydney, AU, ANYWHERE, he had always made batches of 10-15, sold to small Trombone Specialists . . . . ALL over the WORLD.

Those 1500 were sold to Yahmaha Music Corp, in Japan, his Only MASS production run.

Mr. Thayer is long deceased, the person who "bought" the company only used "Mr. Thayers NAME RECOGNITION" he never had the >>>Love of MUSIC<<< that Mr. Thayer had.

I have litterally watched Bands play, and KNEW that I had helped CREATE that Trombone !

philip, from the Great Pacific NorthWET, Oregon, USA
 
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Hi folks,

OK, so I spent a bunch of time over the weekend, playing with this Organoclay I found online.

First of all, caveats:
  1. I’m no expert at this. If I say something dumb, please correct me!
  2. I’m no scientist. I tried to be precise with measurements, etc. but it was not a “six sigma” situation.
  3. Maybe I got lucky. If you decide to buy some of this, I can’t guarantee that it will work for you. Or maybe it will work better for you. What do I know?
That said, I found this organoclay product from a company called Natural Pigments (https://www.naturalpigments.com/). They have a Canadian site, but the organoclay is not listed on it. You have to go to the US site. They sell the organoclay in two sizes: 4 ounces for US$7.20 or 500 grams for US$18.70. Shipping is extra, and you may have to pay duty, depending on how much you buy, etc. The vendor sells the product as an additive for oil paints, to stiffen it, so that it doesn’t run down the canvas. So definitely designed to absorb oil.

From what I’ve read, Bentone 34 was the magic ingredient in Petrobond 1, and Bentone SD-1 was the magic ingredient in Petrobond 2. The difference being that SD-1 did/does not need a catalyst to bond the oil to the sand. It is “self-catalyzing”. The clay I ordered used to be Bentone SD-1…but it has been replaced with the reportedly equivalent (?) Pangel B10. Pangel is made by a Spanish company called Tolsa, that offers a rainbow of organoclay products. It is a very fine, beige powder. Wear your masks!

So I mixed up three batches of oil sand, based (more or less) on the old K-bond recipe:
  • 100 lbs sand;
  • 6 lbs organoclay;
  • 3 lbs oil; and
  • 0.2 lbs catalyst.
Except I scaled it all back, starting with 5 pounds of sand (50 mesh silica) per batch, and made the assumption that Pangel B10 is also self-catalyzing, so I did not (initially) add any isopropyl alcohol, glycol, etc. as a catalyst. In each of the three batches, I used a different oil: SAE 30 non-detergent, clear mineral oil, and a low smoke 2-cycle oil (each of which I’d seen recommended at various points online).

After mulling each batch for a half-hour or so, there wasn’t much going on, so I added some more oil to each one, and then a bit more, trying to keep them all equal. Frustrated, I then added some propylene glycol as a catalyst anyhow, and things began to happen. The sand began to clump and stick together better. It became clear that the SAE 30 was the most successful. However, when I rammed up a mold, planning to see how it handled bronze, the parting powder was essentially ignored, and cope and drag tore chunks of sand out of each other. I reasoned that the talc was being soaked by excess oil. So I began adding a little more sand, a little of this, and then a little of that. Mostly guess-work, based on what the sand felt like. Eventually though, I got to a texture very much like petrobond, excepting for the larger grain size of the sand (mine was only 50, whereas petrobond is more like 130 or so?). With this sand, I was able to ram up a mold, the talc did its job, and the mold came apart cleanly.

The ”recipe” I had arrived at tallied up as follows:
  • 8 lbs of sand
  • 0.5 lbs of organoclay
  • 0.25 lbs of SAE 30 non-detergent oil
  • 0.03 lbs of propylene glycol
But I ran out of time, and haven’t yet actually poured any bronze into it. I’ll see how this week goes, but it may have to wait until next weekend. I also have some propylene carbonate on the way, which is supposed to be the “ideal” catalyst, and I also have a small quantity of olivine sand (much finer mesh) on hand, that I may mix up, to see how it behaves.

But all of this to say, it looks promising. I may fool around with proportions some more, but the current batch feels like petrobond in the hand, has equivalent green strength, and “moves” the same way that petrobond does when you pack the mold. Fingers crossed…

Patrick
 
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