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Anyone using coal in Calgary?

Y

yycwelder

Member
Just wondering if anyone is running a coal forge in Calgary? I’m interested in setting one up as a change from propane from time to time. I’ve only used coal a couple of times but I’d like to use it more this year.
I’m looking into sourcing coal as well. Have a few leads but will follow up in a few weeks to see what pans out. Anyone out there with information they’d like to share?


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I would be interested in finding sources of coal/coke as I'd like to dabble with building a cupola furnace




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It was many years ago, and not in Calgary, but a buddy of mine was able to order coal through Home Hardware! They shipped it to the local store and he picked up from there. I think he got a 40 kg bag and is still working on it.

Craig
 
I recollect some 30 years ago helping my cousin pickup a truck load of coal from the Battle River power plant. He used it to thaw the ground prior to trenching in the sewer and water services to the house he was building. There are more than a few coal fired power plants in Alberta.
 
kevin.decelles said:
I would be interested in finding sources of coal/coke as I'd like to dabble with building a cupola furnace




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Click to expand...
Just a few tid-bits of info I can pass on to the coal buyer here if I may (I worked in a coal mine for 9 years). One is a very sincere warning about coal...It is very susceptible to self-combusting (similar to compacted grain dust in elevators/flour mills) if left out in the elements in a pile. do not store it near a building or flammable pile of wood/dry grass type of thing. small or big 20 ton piles, it doesn't matter, I've seen them turn from a harmless pile to a bunch of smoldering ash overnight . Very much similar to the peat moss fires starting in planters that have been known to burn houses down.

I think both the local coal from a power plant or the coaking coal from the mountain mines will work for a hobby forge, the coke coal is preferred for large commercial steel mills for its higher BTU and less ash & less H2O content. The local power plant coal is what we called "soft coal", it had a much higher water content (up to 23%) than mountain hard coal and produces more ash and clinkers. The Mountain coke coal the big mines sell is pure coal as well, while the power plants mine several layers of a coal-clay mixture (sometimes up to 10% clay) that is all ground up together & force fed into the blast furnace.

When I worked in the mine there were probably a dozen mines open for small commercial sales around the province but with the installation of the rural gas co-op's everywhere the demand died (my coal mine along with it) and I don't know of a single outlet to buy a small bit of coal anywhere now and if a person really wanted a couple pails of coke coal I think the only option would be to jump a coal train on a siding somewhere.
 
That is interesting - in Poland even today coal is used a lot for home heating in the winter - it is being phased out now a lot but 20 years ago it was the main home heating source when not part of "new development". Every home on the acerage or small town had a coal furnace.

The coal used was of high grade - i.e. it was hard black coal vs. what power-plants used which was frequently the inferior "brown coal". I don't recall anyone using anything inferior to the brown coal grade.

There are also grades of the pure black stuff - currently Polish miners are heavily competing against Russian coal that is cheap but has lesser energy content.

Coke was used moderately for home heating -- it is like coal but lighter and less shiny in appearance. As a kid it didn't interest me much as there were no impressions of any plants on its porous surface.

About 10, 15 years ago many people started using cheaper coal dust - its like sand and is a byproduct - it can be used in automated furnace that doses it vs. the chore of having to operate it manually. About the same time people also got natural gas furnaces and many homes had more then one - coal was the cheaper option while gas was when you didn't want to bother with the chore.

Interesting part is that the coal was always stored as a pile next to the furnace. I.e. every late summer / autumn you would order few tons of coal to be either delivered or you used your car with a small trailer. You then shovelled the coal through basement window inside. I don't recall any fires caused by the combustion of the coal pile - it was a very common practice. Note that the coal had low content of undesirable dust - it was just large coal pieces with little dust - dust is the explosive part and hard to use in non-specialised furnace (i.e. it would frequently just pass through the furnace).

As for jumping the coal train it was a well honed tradition in Poland that gave fruit many years ago (100+) to railroad police.

Current price in Poland for 1000kg of coal (black) is between 500PLN (for cheapest sulphur filled low energy stuff form Russia) to 1000PLN for premium high end coal from Poland. Coal dust is 400PLN. Coke is much more expensive, around 1500 PLN+ Wood pellets 1000PLN for a ton.

1000 PLN == 350 CAD.

So in Poland you could get all your coal / coke energy needs for very little $$$. I have no clue where you can get coal in AB for consumer use.
 
Very good post Tom and you covered some things more thorough than I did. Yes coal is used safely for home heating, the mine I worked at sold 100's of thousands of tons of home heating "stoker furnace sized coal (when I started in 1977 we sold slack coal, the "dust" coal you talk of for $4 ton and good stoker coal for $14 @ T, When the mine shut down in 1986 slack was $15 and stoker was $44). As you said Gas heating is much more convenient and with the installation of gas co-op's province-wide we went from 9 full time employees to just me and I was only working part time.

The stoker sized coal (.5-1.5" sq.) and larger is safe inside for the most part because it is kept out of the elements that create the danger...mainly sun light & moisture. Sunlight will deteriorate larger pieces of coal down to the "more prone to combust slack/dust sized particles (if you stand beside a large pile of lump coal on a hot sunny day you can hear the "snap" sound of small pieces separating from the large pieces). I don't know why coal or grain dust generates enough heat when wet to catch fir but it sure does ( every farmer knows that with hay as well, if it isn't cured well before tightly baling it up, it will burn as well).

Coincidentally, a point a machinist wrote in an article I read last night belongs in this discussion as well. He claims that the fine compacted filings & machining particles that can collect on chip trays can combust and burn as well. He claims to have worked in a shop that this happened to a big lathe overnight and it melted the lathe bed directly over where the hot spot was.
 
Well I see in Poland the coal stored outside for sale is covered with thick mats. The coal for the power plant I faintly recall was not covered.

Hay will start on fire due to heat generated by decomposition. http://nasdonline.org/915/d000758/hay-fires-prevention-and-control.html

Decomposition needs moisture to let bacteria grow. Some heat loving bacteria can go as high as 170F / 75C+ Which is quite hot!

For coal the bacteria produce ...methane. https://www.technologyreview.com/s/...bes-might-create-vast-amounts-of-natural-gas/

We also have this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_seam_fire

and this "Some coals may self-ignite at temperatures as low as 40 °C (104 °F) for brown coal in the right conditions of moisture and grain size."

"China's coal fires, which consume an estimated 20 – 200 million tons of coal a year, make up as much as 1 percent of the global carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuels."

I only know of few metals that burn in the air and the most common one to work on the lathe would be titanium. Small tiny metal 0.001 heated metal bits do seem like they burn near the tool tip but I cannot imagine them com busting without additional heat source on the bed.
 
Thanks to all for the tips and such. I heard home hardware possible can order it in depending on how the person in charge of orders feels it’s worth the effort. That is one source I was planning on pricing out. The second source is a fellow out of B.C. providing he still distributes bags. This is the second source I was planning on pricing out. The only other source I found in all of Alberta was a mine east of Edmonton. They sell as much as you want for the most part but unfortunately on the coal scale it is near the lowest grade. Good for heating but not recommended for forging. In a province of coal and oil you’d think it would be practically in everyone’s backyard. I guess that carbon tax and possibly misguided political agenda’s have multiple repercussions.
If anyone has any other leads I’m still interested. Otherwise I’ll follow up with my original ideas and when I figure things out I’ll make a new post with my findings. Maybe a group buy as well if it makes sense.


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My buddy was one that ordered from Home Hardware. He said that you just need to get the local store to call the head office. He believes they are still ready and willing to sell bags of coal.

BTW, I asked about lighting the forge. He starts a small charcoal fire in the forge and uses that to get the coal burning.

Craig
 
yycwelder said:
Thanks to all for the tips and such. I heard home hardware possible can order it in depending on how the person in charge of orders feels it’s worth the effort. That is one source I was planning on pricing out. The second source is a fellow out of B.C. providing he still distributes bags. This is the second source I was planning on pricing out. The only other source I found in all of Alberta was a mine east of Edmonton. They sell as much as you want for the most part but unfortunately on the coal scale it is near the lowest grade. Good for heating but not recommended for forging. In a province of coal and oil you’d think it would be practically in everyone’s backyard. I guess that carbon tax and possibly misguided political agenda’s have multiple repercussions.
If anyone has any other leads I’m still interested. Otherwise I’ll follow up with my original ideas and when I figure things out I’ll make a new post with my findings. Maybe a group buy as well if it makes sense.


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Click to expand...

I think the "lowest grade" coal you mentioned would still work in a hobby forge situation, just use more coal and force the air to it, blacksmiths & farriers used easily sourced coal for years.

There is another source for coal if your kind of adventurous and energetic. Most any steep open faced river bank close to Calgary will have an exposed coal seam that could easily be mined with a pick & shovel & wheel barrow with a couple hours work. Look on the "outside" of a curve in the river (the banks are regularly washed away, removing dirt that hides the seam) for a very distinct black line in the bank . You might be lucky enough to find some very close to the roads at river crossings but even if a seam is visible a bit off the road a quick ask of the land owner for access permission probably wont be denied.
The home Hardware will no doubt be the easiest solution but the river banks will add a bit of satisfaction to the process as well.
 
Depends on what do they exactly mean by "low quality" coal - if it is low quality b/c of low energy content then that is fine - but if it is due to very high sulphur content it may be less desirable. On the other hand unless you are making high end swords maybe its of not such a great importance.

To bad you don't know the exact locations of where the coal seams are.

Maybe one can also get the coal from near the mines - https://www.teck.com/operations/canada/operations/cardinal-river/

Its a river. It has to have some coal outside of the actual mine. I would guess.

If you find out more let me and others know!
 
not sure if this is helpful but they reference some specs on the bottom right hand corner
https://www.centaurforge.com/Bagged-Smithing-Coal-50-lbs-bag/productinfo/COAL1WS/

Company I worked for long time ago had mines in Obed. Maybe google some names & just walk the railroad tracks. That's what I did as a kid up to no good making gunpowder.Maybe the railraods are run better nowadys & the stuff generally stays in the boxes. Coal & sulpur no problem. Saltpeter was always the tricky one. Someones 'older brother' always had to convince someone at a hardware store or pharmacist or something LOL.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_coal_mines_in_Canada
 
PeterT said:
not sure if this is helpful but they reference some specs on the bottom right hand corner
https://www.centaurforge.com/Bagged-Smithing-Coal-50-lbs-bag/productinfo/COAL1WS/

Company I worked for long time ago had mines in Obed. Maybe google some names & just walk the railroad tracks. That's what I did as a kid up to no good making gunpowder.Maybe the railraods are run better nowadys & the stuff generally stays in the boxes. Coal & sulpur no problem. Saltpeter was always the tricky one. Someones 'older brother' always had to convince someone at a hardware store or pharmacist or something LOL.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_coal_mines_in_Canada
Click to expand...

Or you could have done it the old way that the Confederates did in the civil war when the blockades hindered the importing from outside sources for gun powder...they had crews that their everyday jobs were to go around to every outdoor outhouse in every community in the south and excavate the fresh contents for use in manufacturing Saltpeter. Talk about one of the worst jobs in history....and being in the south you can guess who drew the short straw on that one.
 
johnnielsen said:
I ordered coal through Home Hardware in Airdie. My contact was Clark. They distribute coal provided by Thak Ironworks who import it from Virginia.

Check this site: https://www.thak.ca/product/bituminous-blacksmithing-coal/

I thought I posted this a few days ago but I guess I forgot to hit 'post reply'.
Click to expand...
I found that site through my travels but didn't have a contact at a specific location. I'm in south Calgary so I was going to try Okotoks as it's a bit closer but if it doesn't pan out I'll reach out to Clark. Thanks for the extra info. That's what I was looking for.
I'd love to go for a hike and find a natural source but my schedule is a bit restrictive currently. Maybe in the future sometime.
 
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