Anyone experienced with flat belt or line shaft setup?

[mikoyan31]

So I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion I'm an idiot who shouldn't be let out without a keeper.

Couple of years ago I picked up a camelback drill press, Canadian Forge and Blower brand. The machine has been electrified, i.e. there is a switch bolted to the side of it and a hacked together belt drive where the loose and tight pulleys would have been. The seller had a story that appealed to me. Said it came out of the maintenance shop at a former CP resort hotel near where I grew up. Ran fine, but the seller had a shim, okay a wedge more like under the tail end of the driven step pulley assembly canting it's tail up in the air. Ran fine at the slowest speed, belt seemed to track fine, etc.

I'm in the process of putting it back together after some cleaning, removing 100+ years of grime, slapped on stove paint, etc. New belt and everything. So when I try to get the drive working, without the shim the belt will run off the low side of the cone. Consistently. If I add the shim back in, which actually is 1/2 a broken brass hinge so it's probably 1/16" thick or better, I can get the belt to stay on. But if I cut the length of the belt for the slowest combo, it's too loose at the fastest and slips. Should I cut it for the fastest combo, it's WAY too short and tight for the slowest. If I remove the shim, the belt length seems to be legit across all the step cone combinations. To my mind this tells me that the shafts the cones run on are pretty well parallel without the shim and not with the shim.

Here we get into where I thinking I have a parts bin special. The base plate has a machined area on the casting where the frame that holds the driven cone bolts. The bolt holes line up and there is little slop beyond slightly oversize clearence holes on the bracket casting. But the machined footprint on the base is somewhat LARGER than the machined foot of the driven cone bracket. It's like the driven set up needs to be about 1/2" closer to the upright post. I can't move it closer to the post since there's not enough slack in the holes.

So all that as a preface to me asking if I'm missing something about flat belt machinery. Something simple but not obvious. If I need to I can probably mill the clearance holes on the cone pulley frame into slots to allow it to slide back toward the post. It would be some really interesting fixtureing on my lathe cross slide since I don't have a mill. I won't even mention the locking collar on the shaft that needs to come off that has chisel marks around where there MIGHT be a set screw. I'll probably cut that off and simply make a new one.

Thanks all.

-CS

 

[Susquatch]

So all that as a preface to me asking if I'm missing something about flat belt machinery.

Pictures please. Might help us provide more meaningful input.

 

[mikoyan31]

Pictures please. Might help us provide more meaningful input.

I'll see about some this evening. Right now it's gardening season and I'm planting and transplanting rhododendrons and roses and generally playing in the dirt.

 

[YotaBota]

I don't see the belt as the problem, it sounds more like your pulleys aren't matching or they're not orientated correctly.

 

[Bandit]

Yes, a few pictures would help perhaps. Am I understanding that there are 2 stepped pulleys, driving and driven? Often the pulleys are the same, one turned 180 degrees to the other, allowing changing speeds without adjusting tensioning. Flat belts can be a bear to set up. Do you still have the old belt? Generly, there is a tensioning system of some kind to make up for wear and belt stretch, and allow some shaft alinement
Turn belt over and try it, does it still move to the same side? Did you lace the belt? Metal lacing? If the belt has chevrons on 1 side and smooth on the other, can belt be put on inside out? Was belt cut from a wider one?
I know lots of questions, some of the biggest things, is there some crown on the stepped pulleys? If it is straight lacing ( lacing 90 degrees to side of belt), are the ends cut square to the belt sides. Square referenced from as long on the side as reasonably possible. Is the lacing on square?( metal lacing) Do the sides of the belt line up when together?
It sounds like the pulleys are vertical, not horizontal, weight of belt pulls it down. Find an old farmer, machinist /millwright 70 or more years old, they maybe can help/show/fix.
And try to get a tensioner perhaps other then the piece of hinge, tho it does show something may be out of line.
Please keep in mind, what I have mentioned is worth what has been paid.

 

[Susquatch]

Find an old farmer, machinist /millwright 70 or more years old, they maybe can help/show/fix.

Sounds a lot like me..... Although maybe a few years to the "or more" side of the balance.

But I claim no particular expertise. Just had an old belt drive on an old tractor that ran the whole "machine shop" when I was a boy, and used an 1880s flat belt drive lathe for 30 years.

Prolly why I'm looking forward to seeing those pictures.

 

[Bandit]

Yes, I am not that old either, just a bit of experience with round balers, old style flat belt wood planer, a few tons of it, belts every which way and a few old saw mills. Round balers can be a real eye opener with a bunch of flat belts all side by side, running in the same direction.
Enough experience to know an't got that much. Sometimes 1 "belt" gets the old head shaking, 6 or more, oh my!!
I would like to see 1 of the old line drive setups working, with all the possible equipment workable. There was a very set, correct way to lace the old style belts if they were to operate trouble free for long times in hand with good alinement of pulleys and shafting.
What we don't know!

 

[140mower]

https://youtube.com/@davidrichards5594

This fellow is still making a living with a steam powered machine shop. He does have a more modern engine rebuilding shop as well, but most videos are of the old stuff.....

 

[Bandit]

I have just watched the one where he line bores a steamer cylinder, no Muzak, him talking about set up and doing the job. Plain, simple.

 

[Mcgyver]

https://youtube.com/@davidrichards5594

This fellow is still making a living with a steam powered machine shop. He does have a more modern engine rebuilding shop as well, but most videos are of the old stuff.....

Wow, steam engine, amazing old iron and so clean and organized as well. I want to live there.

Not sure I would trust myself with the boiler though.....to easy to forget about the water level. I can't leave the sink running and leave the kitchen without about a 50/50 chance of flooding the place

 

[mikoyan31]

Well, that has gone down in the books officially as two weeks from hell. Sorry folks I didn't mean to go radio silent, life just got in the way.

I did spend some time yesterday fiddling with the old machine and took some pics. All with my cell phone. At least it's a Pixel phone so the quality isn't bad.

This is the driven side not bolted down

And the same bolted down. You can see the footprints don't match. Where the paint begins is a slight step.

Belt on the drive cone.

And on the driven.

And this is what happens when I turn everything by hand.

One of the intermediate steps.

Matching on the bottom

"High" speed step.

And the matching.

It's a 2" belt

Best visualization of how far out of whack it wants to run on the bottom.

My thinking, if this is a mismatched setup, which I highly suspect it is, I could mill or have milled those holes into slots. The sharpie shows up better on the bottom hole. That would allow me to adjust the whole thing forward about the same amount the belt runs off.

So a couple items from some various comments,

- There wasn't a proper belt with the machine in the first place. There was a kludge of a 2" fabric load strap that was "driving" the machine. It would slip and stall the moment there was a load applied.
- As far as I can tell, there is no tension device for one of these drill presses. I've looked at pictures and videos and they just run from one step cone to the other.
- I ordered up new fabric belt and alligator lacing from McMaster Carr. I'm surprised I got it to be honest.

Cheers!

 

[historicalarms]

Long-long time since I've messed with a flat belt drive system. In my teens we had an old JD tractor with a thrasher pully mounted to it that we ran a couple different feed grinders with. From my memory I can remember catching hell if I didnt line the tractor up perfectly with the grinders. both pully's had to be in perfect alignment or that belt would track off one side or the other as yours is....the other thing I can remember the old man fretting about is that the belt be absolutely even across the join, if it wasnt , one side of the belt would be tighter than the other, If that belt ( prob double the width yours is) wasnt even from side to side , no mater how well the pullies were lined up the belt would track off.

Love those old photos of industrial or gun manufacturers shops from turn of the century that have 200 ft of belt driven machines working side by side in unison.

 

[Bandit]

O.K., let's see if I "might" be able to help. Forget about the belt to begin with, that its own problem. Look at the pulleys and shafts. Get out the tape measure. Is the diameter of the big driving pulley the same as the diameter of the big driven pulley? Next, is the diameter of the small pulleys the same? Measure the pulleys, each 1 should have a matching 1. Yes one set is turned 180 degrees to the other set. This means if the pulleys do not have match on the other driven/ drive side there will be a tensioning device needed. The idea being the belt length does not change when moving from speed to speed. The circumfonce of the small pulley added to circumfonce of its driven/driving large pulley is the same as any of the other step pairs. I hope this makes sense.
Now take the steel rule you have, put it on the face of each pulley, there should be some crown on each one. Not sure how much, but some, the rule should rock a bit. While checking for crown, are the pulley faces each about the same width?
O.K., still with me? With the drive pulley set bolted down, check to see if the pulley shafts are parallel, the more so the better, perhaps want 1/8in. or less out. The parallel should be checked horizontal and vertical. Eg. the shafts ends should be the same distance apart and one shaft should not be vertically angled/twisted compared to the other shaft.
For the next simple check, the hard part is levelling the machine. With outseeing machine, it makes things interesting. "Appears" the best place to level from is the colleum, get the machine level as possible.
Drop a string line down from one pulley set to the other, you want to check pulley alinement with the other pulley set, does one pulley set need to be moved sideways to line up with the other set.
It takes longer for me to type this, while thinking out the steps for someone to do it based on what tools they may have available or not, and not knowing the experience involved. If I have offended it was not ment.
Once again, same measurements may not be able to be perfect due to castings and wear. But we try to get every thing as close as possible. A note about the belt, the width of the belt might not be the average width of the pulley faces, it may possibly be 1/2inch or more narrower to allow belt to aline when running.
I hope the above makes sense. LOL.
P.S. Do not tighten the pad very much on bottom mount, it appears that it has been machined/ cast with pads and tightening the bolts too much may brake/ spring the assembley.

 

[Bandit]

Well, I hope you have had a chance to take a look at the drill press since I last wrote. Fully understandable if not due to "life"," the best made plans of mice and men" did not make any allowances for life parteners, pets, livestock, working, etc.,etc.
I was thinking about the driveing pulley pad and mounting point and no paint area larger then pad mount. This may mean there were some adjusting shims here. Are the 2 holes threaded? It appears they maybe from the picture, if so, great! The "duh" moment came when I was thinking about the drive belt, how would the belt tension be adjusted with a new belt or an older one with wear and stretch ?? Relacing a old belt means cutting out lacing on one end or both to do repairs etc. Even cutting the new belt to the proper length is a bear without some adjustment. So I am thinking there was maybe a shim stack there. Remove shim(s) as the new belt wears and stretchs, put shims in for a new belt. I could bet there were no plates in this spot when you got the unit. LOL. ( This would mean the driven and drive pulleys are mirrors of each other.) If the the pulleys are not mirrors of each other, this is another can of worm holes.(not a big one). The shim stack may have been something like -- 1/2inch, 1/4, 1/8 plate, which allows a fairly wide adjustment range. This does not take into account any shims for shaft alinement, which would be in place at all times.
Is there much wear on the pulley shafts and in the shaft mounting brackets?
No, we have not talked much about the belt yet. While it is its own problem, it can not do its work without a good footing to run on. Nearly all the belt things have been briefly covered in my first? post along with historicalalarms post also. I hope the belt has not been "cut to length yet". LOL.

 

[mikoyan31]

@Bandit yeah, life gets in the way, especially with two teenagers in the house.

In no particular order:

- The holes on the plate are threaded. The bolts are actually a fair bit too long so your idea of belt adjusting shims might be in the money. That said I have seen absolutely no reference to belt adjustments but that type of information may have been lost to the mists of time. I've found "common" knowledge, even from my youth seems to be getting lost since nobody ever thought to mention it or write it down. I can only imagine what has been lost from my grandfather's and great grandfather's time.

- I need to grab a tailor's tape measure and check the circumference of the cones. To my uncalibrated eye-crometer they look the same bit may not be.

- I did the plumb line trick a while ago but since I only have two hand (and it was January in an unheated garage) it was

- Re: belt stretch based on what I've seen from Dave Richards (the youtube guy with the steam powered shop) is dealt with by cutting out a piece of the belt and relacing it. I know it's only one source, but see my previous comment on lost knowledge.

- There doesn't seem to be much if any wear on either the drive or driven shaft. Also judging by the minimal amount of "peck marks" in the table I don't think the machine saw all that much useage.

- With respect to crown, the only one that has obvious crown is the smallest of the drive cone. That's again with an uncalibrated eye-crometer. I will put the scale on them to check.

- Tightening the bolts, good point. I didn't reef on them anyway but I'll go for "snug enough"

 

[Bandit]

Hi mikoyan31, ah yes teenagers, when things get a little rough, think back to your own teenage years and what was going on with you. Sometimes that can be an "oh sh$$ moment". And remember, genetics/DNA "sometimes" run true. A truly scary thought in my family.
As to checking diameter/circumference of the pulleys, apiece of light string and a marker would work.
As to common knowledge, it apples to what is common with the time we live in. Flat belt belt drives are not common any more. Cell phones are ( god help me). LOL. Information is at your finger tips, IF it is common stuff it can be found. Just have to separate the good from the unknowing sh$$ by the truck load. Eg. I have been reading a bit of an old book that belonged to a great uncle, it is on steam, it appears to have been a recimended read to get your steam ticket in perhaps the 1910 to 1920 period. Holy cow, maybe a pig and a sheep thrown in too. We take it that water is not compressible, however the book stated with enough pressure, 1/137000 part of water could be added to a fixed volume. No, I can't remember the exact number at the moment. But this and a lot of other things were commonly known by steam boiler operators of the time.
Belt stretch can be dealt with by recutting and relacing, however this does depend on the type of lacing being used, ( a picture??) metal type lacing with the hooked bent over prongs needs fresh meat to properly work, this can result in a short belt. This also is the same with the clamp/bolted style. Allowances should be made in the belt length for the lacing being added, again possibly meaning a shim stack for belt tension. The old style with the leather "lace" could allow for small adjustments with just the lacing itself. However with metal lacing, adjustments are often in the remove an inch to adjust, and nearly non reusable lacing clips.
Sometimes it's cold enough in the winter even the plump line is shivering.
Anyway,I hope some of what I have mentioned is of use.
, the longer then needed bolts may have had flat washers under the heads, part of the "shimming to be used", added as needed.