Shop Adding 240V circuit to detached garage that already has 120V circuit?

[Susquatch]

For fire safety reasons? I would have guessed that the vast majority of all electric cars are charged inside a garage.

Yup, lithium is high fire risk even outside.

I'll have to send a note to a few old colleagues to see what the stats are today. I'm guessing the entire industry is pulling their hair out. Back in my day 3 of every 5 vehicle fires were remote start related. 1 out of 5 was some after market accessory.

Bottom line is that unattended high current is a higher risk than I'd accept. It's kind of like going to bed right after doing some welding. Not a good plan.

 

[Susquatch]

For fire safety reasons? I would have guessed that the vast majority of all electric cars are charged inside a garage.

I fired off an email and got a reply almost right away.

The vehicle industry lobbied hard against indoor charging but governments around the world are pushing EVs and didn't want any restrictions lest EVs get a bad rep. So indoor charging is common place. A few manufacturers have tried various approaches to recomnending outdoor charging and have largely failed.

Surprisingly (to me anyway), the actual stats for EV fires is low compared to gasoline. However, the damage resulting from the intensity of lithium fueled fires is much higher.

My colleague said he does not recommend it to family and friends.

So like so many other things, I guess it becomes a personal choice.

If it was my garage, it would not be allowed. But who knows what the average home owner would want.

I suppose it's also a question to ask your insurance.

 

[jcdammeyer]

I'll add my two cents here. As I understand it the majority of older houses (pre 1970) are connected with a 100A service. Ours was. (Our little house in Edmonton had a 60A breaker). When I upgraded our kitchen we had BC Hydro run new wires to the house and an electrical firm came and installed a new meter and connected to my way too large (physically) new panel through a 200A breaker.

We decided not to move all the wires from the old box (expensive) to the new box so they installed a 100A breaker from the new box and the correct size wires to the old one.
There is now room on the panel for a proper size wire to the front of the house where an electric car would be plugged in for charging.

The circuit breakers protect the wire and only the wire. Not the items plugged into outlets. That's why if you add up the amperage of the breakers in the panel it's often quite a bit higher than the main breaker. I'd have to look up what exactly the ratio is allowed to be but like the branches from the distribution box, the main house breaker protects the wires from the pole to the box. And if you are running your 40A electric stove, 30A clothes drier and three 1.5kW heaters you may find the 100A breaker blowing.

Which is why of course most pre 1970 houses aren't set up for charging electric vehicles with more than a 115VAC 15A outlet. Although there may be room in the box for 40A 220V breaker it along with the stove and the drier will end up popping the house breaker. (not to mention whatever else is running).

If we decide to add the ability to charge an electric vehicle I may just get the electricians to add the intermediate boxes to extend the original cables all to the main panel. Just to clean things up. The sheet on the main door there outlines the entire house and what is connected where.

 

[phaxtris]

all the new multi million dollar homes in and around calgary are set up for electric charging in the attached garages, at least the ones i have put steel into

seems to be a status symbol for the semi-well off now, at least around here

 

[JustaDB]

The LAST thing I would ever want is some guy charging an electric vehicle in my garage.

DINGDINGDINGDINGDING!!! We have a winnah!

 

[jcdammeyer]

I think all the newer houses are at least wired with a large enough service for charging. There may well be a market for iPhone (home network of some sort) transfer switches which select either the Stove (40A) or the Car Charger. Might even be intelligent enough so that when plug in the car the circuit is automatically transferred to the car. Bad if you have a turkey in the oven but if the house isn't wired for an electric clothes drier then that's the other higher current source.

A box like that can sit right by the main distribution panel. Connect existing stove lumex cable to the switch. Connect breaker to the switch with new lumex cable. Run new lumex cable from the switch to the place where the car plugs in.

After all, we already see those things in the generator setups that set the transfer switch automatically to the generator when there's a power failure.

When the car is plugged in one could even overide this for a preset time so if you do want to bake cookies in the evening then the car circuit is overridden for 60 minutes before it switches back.

None of that is rocket science and doesn't require upgraded power to the house or even an extra circuit breaker.

 

[phaxtris]

the easy solution is just to charge your car over night, when demand is low, not at 5pm when demand is high, all of the home install chargers have the capability of running on a timer

our power grid is generally capable of supporting electric cars, just not at 5 in the afternoon, when everyone is getting home, cooking, running the ac, etc, peak period of energy usage

there is talk of even having networked chargers, that would communicate with other chargers in the area, and throttle power usage as required

utility providers here just need to do what a some of them do in the states, have different rates for hours of the day, it would give people the incentive charge over night, when the current electric rates are lower and the grid is up to the tast

 

[Chicken lights]

One way you might get the landlord to play ball is that the number of electric vehicles is increasing all the time. Tenants are likely to demand support for charging in the future so maybe now is the time to invest in the necessary wiring. A basic 220V outlet for you is a very minor addition at that point.

Craig

I’m highly skeptical electric vehicles will work well in Canada

Perhaps in large cities only?

Care to share any info on this topic?

 

[YotaBota]

The LAST thing I would ever want is some guy charging an electric vehicle in my garage

So you're okay with welding, OA, propane tanks and gas cans in your garage? Maybe throw in grinding some magnesium just for kicks.

You're more likely to start a fire by grinding, welding or OA cutting than charging a car.

@Xyphota - the advise referencing electrical connections is all good. If you can work with an electrician and you do the grunt work the cost could be acceptable and done to code.

Sounds like we need an "off-topic" discussion on electric vehicles rather than clogging other threads.

 

[Chicken lights]

all the new multi million dollar homes in and around calgary are set up for electric charging in the attached garages, at least the ones i have put steel into

seems to be a status symbol for the semi-well off now, at least around here

people with money never seem to have common sense

begging the question how they have money

no politics or computer OP system slants

 

[jcdammeyer]

I’m highly skeptical electric vehicles will work well in Canada

Perhaps in large cities only?

Care to share any info on this topic?

Why are you skeptical?

 

[phaxtris]

people with money never seem to have common sense

begging the question how they have money

no politics or computer OP system slants

maybe they have a fire suppression system, i couldn't say for sure, im not often there that late in the build, many of these homes are 5, 10, 15 million, so nothing is really out of the question

the electric cars seem to work well for people that stay within a 300km round trip, and realistically, most urban/suburban people commute less than 25km each way, plenty of juice to run aux heat in the winter

electric cars are here to stay, some of the work i do involves dealerships (erected a Chrysler dealer this summer actually and built a mez in a gm dealer last month), they are all putting in facilities to repair electric vehicles, battery hoists, high capacity chargers etc..

electric wont replace everything, but a good portion of the urban/suburban population would be well served by an electric vehicle

ill be stuck burning the old dinosaur juice for the foreseeable future, cant replace everything

 

[Susquatch]

Sounds like we need an "off-topic" discussion on electric vehicles rather than clogging other threads.

You are probably right about that. The whole EV thing is probably an entire discussion that shouldn't even be on the forum let alone this thread.

I was really only suggesting that installing an EV charger is prolly not a good way to get a landlord to let you rewire his garage. It turns out I was probably wrong about that even though I wouldn't do it myself.

 

[140mower]

Why are you skeptical?

For me, medical appointments and such are often a two hour drive away in one direction, I am skeptical that the battery is up to that in a snow storm coming home at night in the dead of winter. For around town, I am all for the idea, but hearing the words that it "should be okay" just aren't very reassuring to me. I hope that the technology proves it's self, but for the time being I am going to stay away from the Kool aid until I know that it is safe....

 

[trlvn]

Just a couple of quick comments. I don't own an electric vehicle...but they are a computer with a car wrapped around it. I believe most (all?) EVs can schedule when they start charging because many jurisdictions have time of day pricing for electricity and it only makes sense to charge in the off-peak period.

For urban commuters, an EV can make a lot of sense. Especially a second vehicle. That means that a pretty big portion of the automotive market. For many years, we had one vehicle that pretty much exclusively went back and forth to the Go Train station--6 km each way.

OTOH, my electrician mentioned that if every house on the street had an electric vehicle charging, the substation would fail. Neighbourhoods just a few years old do not have the infrastructure to deliver that much electricity. It would be insanely expensive to upgrade the electrical delivery system to support this demand. Since an EV is a computer, it is _possible_ that they could communicate to 'share' the available power supply. Making that actually work in real life is decidedly non-trivial.

On yet another hand, I kinda follow a guy that asserts that (electric) bicycles are the real solution. Several European cities, including Nordic areas with a serious winter season, are putting a lot of emphasis on bikes for transport. In dense urban areas, the commute time can be SHORTER with a bike. Roads can carry many more cyclists than (often single person) cars and parking is far less a problem. There are major health benefits across the population which means lower health care costs (and lower taxes). With appropriate public transit options, private vehicles can be virtually eliminated in a city core. Obviously doesn't work for everyone, everywhere but...

Craig

 

[Xyphota]

On yet another hand, I kinda follow a guy that asserts that (electric) bicycles are the real solution. Several European cities, including Nordic areas with a serious winter season, are putting a lot of emphasis on bikes for transport. In dense urban areas, the commute time can be SHORTER with a bike.

I have an e-bike and my next project will be a custom e-bike. I am a huge fan and for me in Calgary it is about the same time for commuting so in the summer it is a blast. I'm comfortable having two e-bikes inside my home as they both use name-brand batteries. I would feel less comfortable with a cheap off-shore made battery, but you can get small fireproof charging stations that you can put the batteries in while not in use to ease your conscious.

 

[phaxtris]

there is a guy who rocks an electric unicycle from spring to fall who rips, and i mean absolutely rips (30k an hr easy) to and from work, or the train (not sure which), every day in front of my place during the warm months, i have also met a few people who roll electric scooters to and from work, or the train

getting around with personal electric vehicles is getting really common, especially with the cost of a vehicle, fuel, insurance, rent, groceries, its fast becoming a way for lower income people to try and get ahead/keep above water

i have a one wheel pint myself, i cruise to home depot on that thing when i only need a backpack worth of stuff, and on outings with my wife where she uses her "batec" that turns her wheel chair into an electric trike capable of 20km an hr, electric stuff has come a long ways in the last 10 years

 

[slow-poke]

FYI
Most if not all the new home chargers are somewhat smart in that they use CT's that measure the current flowing into the main panel. The user programs in the service size as a setting For example 100A. So the charger now knows in real time how much current in can pull without tripping the main breaker and it will vary the charge current based on what is available from moment to moment. Some of them are more advanced than that optimizing charging and cost with peak metering rates, solar ( if they have it ) etc.

When you really think about it, the ICE is a pretty strange invention and I think the auto manufacturers have squeezed about as much as possible out of them. 8 speed automatic transmissions, variable timing valve events, etc. they are becoming really complicated when compared to a simple electric motor. When the auto manufacturers finally realized they don't need radiators, exhaust systems and about 1000 other parts, the writing was on the wall.

Once they get past the initial issues I think the majority of city folk will not miss filling up at the pump in January. If I owned a Midas or Speedy franchise I would be looking to sell and soon.

 

[jcdammeyer]

For me, medical appointments and such are often a two hour drive away in one direction, I am skeptical that the battery is up to that in a snow storm coming home at night in the dead of winter. For around town, I am all for the idea, but hearing the words that it "should be okay" just aren't very reassuring to me. I hope that the technology proves it's self, but for the time being I am going to stay away from the Kool aid until I know that it is safe....

For the system to work the medical appointment location will also have charging facilities. So now you are looking at a two hour drive in one direction.
The fear of Lithium systems is because they don't work well below zero. It's handled by heating the batteries. But not well addressed, IMHO, is what to do with a car that had fully charged batteries but now the temperature is at -40C.

You normally cannot take significant current out of a battery until it's above -20C and even there it's only a small amount. The way we did it below -20C is start a generator or apply external power to heat the pack up to -20C so that then the system could run. The heaters continued on up until 0C at which point then the batteries were allowed to be charged.

 

[Darren]

Phev is the way to go in our climate. All electric has limited range in winter, and other issues.