Upgrade on lathe and mill.

[AntonB]

I have a atlas 618 lathe and an atlas horizonal mini mill. I have been getting sidework that has been pushing these machines to thier limit. So with my frustrations the resolve has been made to upgrade. Lathe first then mill.

My needs, im thinking, would be something 12 to 20 swing, 40 to 56 bed, quick change gear box and threading dial, taper attach would be nice, and the standard goodies. 3 jaw 4 jaw, steady rest, my garage is 1ph but i figure with the right deal i can figure a vfd out

So that beings said. lets hear the opinions, Ideas, and questions.... and go!

 

[6.5 Fan]

Your first concern is location, availability of machines in your area. The range of swing is huge, a lot of difference in a 12 inch ,machine and a 20 inch lathe, ie weight and room needed.

 

[Susquatch]

Used or new?
What are you making?
CNC?
DROs?
Budget?

 

[Ironman]

I find it fascinating that everyone wants a taper attachment. I've had them, I think there is one for my current lathe, not sure where it is....
I never bother to cut my own morse tapers, or JT tapers. I can't think of what i would want to do with one. I spent my time trying to always cut parallel, and not cut a taper between centres. I definitely would not let it affect my decision on whether to buy a certain lathe or not.

 

[Chipper5783]

Quite a range in lathe size you have presented. I find on lathes up to about 16" swing it is still a handy size machine (no problem working small parts, not crazy heavy, still easy to power up), over that they seem to get a bit clunky and the logistics are more of a chore, tooling gets pretty expensive etc. There seems to be a corresponding break point on the price in the used market - it is common to see those bigger machines selling for $0.05-$0.10 on the dollar compared to new but a decent 15" lathe will be 50% of new.

You already have a small lathe, keep it. It is very handy to have a second lathe because every lathe is a bit different and will cover different aspects (no one machine will do everything). Put some thought into your power system - sure VFDs work well, but can run into cost and be a chore if you are powering very many 3 phase machines (I have both a whole shop phase converter for most machines and a couple 3 phase machines converted to single phase and a VFD). The VFD supply has its' place, the various phase converters have their place, it depends on your situation.

It sort of seems like your goal is simply to get some larger machines, so you can do bigger stuff (careful, that never ends, there are always bigger jobs and bigger machines)? What are you wanting to do?

 

[MrWhoopee]

I find it fascinating that everyone wants a taper attachment. I've had them, I think there is one for my current lathe, not sure where it is....
I never bother to cut my own morse tapers, or JT tapers. I can't think of what i would want to do with one. I spent my time trying to always cut parallel, and not cut a taper between centres. I definitely would not let it affect my decision on whether to buy a certain lathe or not.

Ah, the taper attachment! The least used "must have", no lathe is complete without one. I've used mine for threading pipe, once.

 

[YotaBota]

I think the TA is a nice to have when the compound does 3.5" and the taper you need is longer or as above you're doing a lot of tapered threading. Unless long tapers or taper threading are a regular occurrence in your shop, it shouldn't be a show stopper if you find a machine that ticks every other box.

 

[Tecnico]

Ah, the taper attachment! The least used "must have", no lathe is complete without one. I've used mine for threading pipe, once.

And the contrarian voice pipes up...........I've used mine for a bunch of things, a TTA is on the list of to do's for my recently acquired SM 1120. No Morse tapers yet but I have used it to cut a JT to mount a Jacobs chuck.

D

 

[Ironman]

There you go. If you use it often it is worth having. A short taper like JT is easily done with the compound, but to have the contraption lurking around for once a year use is not for me.

 

[YotaBota]

Contraption?? I can't remember (surprise) what your machine is. Is the TTA not a permanent fixture on the lathe?

 

[Susquatch]

Contraption?? I can't remember (surprise) what your machine is. Is the TTA not a permanent fixture on the lathe?

Contrarian...... Not contraption! LMAO! Prolly both apply to that eastern trouble maker.

I don't have a taper attachment and never really needed one despite making lots of tapers. What my compound won't do, an offset tailstock will.

That hasn't stopped me from wanting one. I can still get one for my lathe but given 12 years of not needing it, the high cost of getting one, the shortening timeline on my remaining life, and competing wants, I've mostly kept a strong leash on my splurging urges.

At most, I might adapt an MT3 boring head or buy one of these if they were available from China or anyplace other than India.

Amazon.ca

My original questions in post #3 above still apply. I can't really comment on your question till I see those answers.

Like others have said though. I think a 20 inch swing is a huge lathe. I personally believe that a 14x40 is the sweet spot. If I didn't know what I wanted to do quite yet but wanted a lathe that would do 98% of whatever that was, that's what I'd get. A 12x36 lathe with a removable gap would be a close second for me.

 

[Tom Kitta]

Back to OP question - the swing size range is huge 12 to 20 (!!!)
Bed length of 40" in 12" swing is a bit long, not common on newer stuff - certainly 56" is rare in 12" swing. In 20" swing 40" - 56" is rather rare - you are talking about rare short machine.

A light duty 12" swing 24" bed machine may be 200kg. A similar 20" swing and say short 56" bed machine could be 3000kg.

 

[trevj]

Yeah, the size range looked for is too much in my opinion, both as supposedly 'stepping up' from Atlas, as well as in the required support infrastructure to be able to move or have moved, machines of this size.

Would suggest a reasonable step up size range to max out around a 13x40 or smaller machine. Seems to me about the sweet spot for running on single phase power (or powering off single phase through a VFD), as well as being within the capability of a careful fella to move the machine around the shop, and into place, without needing a bigger truck, bigger trailer, access to a large gantry or overhead hoist, etc. A decent 13x40, such as my Colchester Master 2500, is, while not especially easy to move, still within the capabilities of a fella with a selection of wood blocking, and a pallet dolly, provided some common sense and caution is used. Still light enough to be towed behind an average vehicle capable of towing a boat or small rec trailer.

Bigger machines can be got cheaper, because far fewer guys have the ability to handle them, as well as fewer folks having the actual power to run a 10-15-20 HP electric motor, in their garages.

You can look on Crown Assets and see that there have been a couple Colchester lathes sold there of late.

 

[Tecnico]

Contrarian...... Not contraption! LMAO! Prolly both apply to that eastern trouble maker.

I don't have a taper attachment and never really needed one despite making lots of tapers. What my compound won't do, an offset tailstock will.

Eastern trouble maker?! I suppose I do make a few contraptions but that’s the point isn’t it? Always fun to poke the bear a bit and look at things from a different direction.

Other folks may have different hardware but setting up the TTA on my Myford can be done more precisely than the compound, mainly because the baseline is 3 - 4 times the (short) compound travel, even easier now that I have the DRO. I also seem to be doing things where I run out of compound travel and where offsetting the tailstock won’t work because they’re hollow Including doing a tapered bore.

For me, using the TTA seems to be a no brainer, might as well since it came with the machine and……….. I didn’t know any better!

Come to think of it, the things I‘ve making have been taper fitted joints like the chuck JT so it doesn’t hurt to use the most precise setup I can - for my machine. I may change my tune when I get my SM 1120 up and running, it’s a different beast.


Now to come back on-topic for @AntonB

Your anticipated work will drive how big a machine you need but I can offer some thoughts in general.

My Myford is in the same ballpark as your Atlas and what I aspired to was to acquire something around the 12 - 14” range for stepping up. That gets you into a larger, beefier (more rigid) and more capable machine able to take deeper cuts and more stable for parting etc.

I think you’re on the right track looking for a machine with a QC threading gearbox and a gear head spindle or a hybrid (like the Myford and others) is worth looking for. IMHO setting up a DRO should be on your to do list.

The other thing to consider is support for the machine you choose. If you go for generic far east, getting parts may be a question. Other makes may still have parts available but at a cost. Some machines have a strong following and user base so information is available and not so much for others.

In my corner of the country second hand machine tools don’t grow on trees so unless you’re buying new you kind of keep your eyes open and you might wind up with something that’s not exactly what you had in mind but close enough for the next step. That’s what happened for me, I picked up a Standard Modern 1120. For me it’s a nice step up and I’ll see how that works out.

Oh, one last thought, when you go shopping for a full size mill, other than Bridgeport, a good name to look for is First (Long Chang - who also make for Sharp), there are several in the forum and I’m told parts can still be had, I think mainly because they’re still in production. There’s a supplier in Toronto.

Don’t know if that was helpful but good luck and keep us in the loop.

D

 

[AntonB]

Awesome thoughts!
The DRO was definitely an addon i was looking to do.

The other consideration i was thinking about was spindel bore. That hasn't been mentioned yet. What kind of sweet spot is good would a 1.5" cover most projects? Or hunting for a 2 inch be better.

The weight issues isnt to scary to deal with i do have some resources to be able to deal with a heavy lathe. It would just take a bit more work to round up and build what i need to make it work. Working in multiple trades gives me the confidence to tackle a move like that.

Living in alberta makes finding a used machine troublesome. I might have to trek to van or ontario to find a deal.

Basically im looking for a solid toolroom lathe to do a broad range of potential repair or building projects while im at home from work. Because i travel doing field machine work im home 1/2 the year and having a machine that would be able to closer meet the tolerances i work with without burn an hour to do 15 minutes worth of work would keep me from loosing my hair faster.

 

[mickeyf]

A 618 is tiny. Would not take much to "push it's limits". Likewise the atlas mill. I had one, and enjoyed it, but it was really lightweight compared to almost any "mill drill" that you could buy these days.

I would start by thoughtfully listing exactly what limitations you have already run into, and what machine(s) would have allowed you to do the jobs you could not at all, or do the ones you could do but struggled with in some way.

Any 12" lathe (for example) is not going to just be double the swing of the 618, but many times the rigidity and therefor able to take heavier cuts and should also enable you to hold closer tolerances more easily.

I would never again own a lathe that did not have a quick change gear box. I have occasionally used the entire 36" of center to center, but 90% of the time even 12" is a long work piece. I have always thought that a taper attachment is cool, but don't have one and nearly the only tapers I've ever had to cut were MT3 that I did using the compound.

Almost anything you get will be a step up. Don't over-think it and let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

 

[jcdammeyer]

The driven spindle pulley on my mill sits on a tapered drive. The 4 step pulley slips onto that and is held down with a nut.

To make a new pulley I had to mount the original and set up the TA to track the taper. Then mount the cast pulley and bore to the same taper.

Next create a tapered holder to be able to turn the pulley.


And then create the pulley.


Which is now on the mill.

I think this would have been way more difficult with the compound slide.

 

[Dabbler]

@AntonB I tend to do a lot of bigger work, but I still use my 12X37 lathe a lot. You can mount and use 8" chucks on it that give you a lot of range of work you can do. It won't take chips off as fast as a 14X40.

For general lathe work, I think a 14X40 like a Modern C0636 is a sweet spot. It has a 1.5" spindle bore and comes with a taper attachment. Almost every manufacturer sells a lathe in this category.

-----

Getting to the chase: I'd sell both my small lathes for a 10ee or an HLV. These are 10X30" lathes that are very much superior to almost anything else, if they are in good shape. They both have tiny through bore.

So, do you want quality or rigidity, or do you only want size?

It sounds like you are in the market for a used lathe: then you will be limited by what you can get. If you have the room, there are a lot of great bargains in the 20"X60" size. One of them came up in the Member Spotted Deals section here recently.

Of course you need the room and have the power to run these larger lathes..... No free lunch, apparently.

 

[Bandit]

Don't get rid of the 618, a smaller lathe is always handy, as to a larger lathe, it is need, time, verses avaliblity,and new or used. You will likely never have a big enough lathe for every job. If you can do/handle 90 to 95 percent of the work that comes to the door you may have the rite size. A gap bed lathe may help in some cases, ( may cause problems in others). Bore size could be off set by bed length and a steady rest and removing the tail stock ( some over hang, depending on job). Available machines are generly cheaper then special order stuff.
If money is no object, 2 new lathes with all the goodies, different sizes. Money also "fixes" the power and the space needed for larger machinery. And the needed tooling!
I would say" my 2 cents worth" but no cents/sense in some areas, so I guess "my nickel's worth".

 

[trevj]

A 1 3/8 " bore is the minimum size to be able to run a 5C collet direct in the spindle bore. Pretty much the 'standard' collet used on a lathe.

This size can be got in lathes in the 11 inch swing category, typically. Larger than standard size bores are out there, but larger diameter bearings drive the prices WAY up fast, so don't get too attached to the idea of a small lathe with a big through hole.

In Alberta? If you cannot find machines for sale, you are looking in the wrong places. I lived in Edmonton from 2000-2004, and spent another 8 years in Cold Lake. Saw, LOTS of lathes come and go in that time. Bought and resold several of them.

Big lathes don't work so well for little work, and vise versa. Having a decent small lathe around can be pretty handy. I went several years with both a Myford ML 7 and a Super 7 in the shop, and both got used for what they each seemed a better choice for.

Frankly, if you are somewhat satisfied at the capabilities of a 6x18 Atlas, you are going to be THRILLED by almost anything bigger and better built! Maybe you got the 'unicorn', but I never saw much value in the capabilities of the smaller Atlas lathes. Admittedly, you could do worse. The Sears AA-109 lathe springs to mind.