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Standard Modern Longitudinal Feed Disengagement

Hello I live in Cambridge Ontario if there is anyone in the general area .
My question is about disengaging the feed on my SM 13 x 40 lathe . If the feed lever is moved just enough to start things moving disengagement is ok but if the lever is moved to its full travel position the force to disengage is really hard ,,, needless to say it really increases my blood pressure when I get the hard to disengage situation ,,, I see no adjustment to control the amount of lever travel and before putting in an adjustable stop to control the lever travel I wanted to know if someone knows what the real cause is ..
thanks in advance
 

Brent H

Ultra Member
Does your lathe feed have a slot that rides the length of the feed rod? On the back of the apron is the gearing for the feed system. If the keyway is worn you can have issues. As well if the gears are mashed you can also have problems.

Also check to see if your engagement handle is going too far - I will upload your manual / check out page 25 on the drawings / could be you have a thrust bearing gone.
 

Brent H

Ultra Member
Check things out below. The drawings for your lathe are there. The feed lever is different than my Utilathe so I am not as familiar.
 

Attachments

  • standard-modern-1340-manual.pdf
    3.2 MB · Views: 7

Brent H

Ultra Member
Hello @YYCHM - basically a mashed gear is probably more a car gear box term for a standard gear box where the person engaging the the gears just smashes them in without adequate declutch time. the sycro/mesh gearing starts to get mashed up - or beat up and looses the nice profile. For the lathe application if the gears are beat up and don't mesh nicely, could be possible they stick when the desire is to have them release from each other, or not go into proper mesh at all.

My 10" imperial Utilate has brutal looking feed gears. Ther is a change in the 1340 and the engagement is not the same. It could be that a detent needs adjusting on @hovercraft57 's lathe
 

Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
Hello I live in Cambridge Ontario if there is anyone in the general area .
My question is about disengaging the feed on my SM 13 x 40 lathe . If the feed lever is moved just enough to start things moving disengagement is ok but if the lever is moved to its full travel position the force to disengage is really hard ,,, needless to say it really increases my blood pressure when I get the hard to disengage situation ,,, I see no adjustment to control the amount of lever travel and before putting in an adjustable stop to control the lever travel I wanted to know if someone knows what the real cause is ..
thanks in advance

I get out your way once in a while. My wife's mom is in a care home there. I'm not allowed in so I sit in the parking lot.

Next time she goes, I could swing by and look at it with you. I'm no wizard, but two pairs of eyes is always better than one and somebody to talk through it is always good.

I will say this. I am one of those guys who lives with minor irritations rather than fixing them. Too many exciting things I'd rather do than scratch an itch. BUT........ There is no way I would EVER live with that problem of yours. I like my deep voice too much. A problem like that would permanently alter my base frequency up several octaves.
 

LenVW

Process Machinery Designer
Premium Member
Hello I live in Cambridge Ontario if there is anyone in the general area .
My question is about disengaging the feed on my SM 13 x 40 lathe . If the feed lever is moved just enough to start things moving disengagement is ok but if the lever is moved to its full travel position the force to disengage is really hard ,,, needless to say it really increases my blood pressure when I get the hard to disengage situation ,,, I see no adjustment to control the amount of lever travel and before putting in an adjustable stop to control the lever travel I wanted to know if someone knows what the real cause is ..
thanks in advance
I work part-time in Cambridge and can assist you and Sasquatch.
Give me a heads up and we can put our heads together to find a solution.
 

Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
basically a mashed gear is probably more a car gear box term for a standard gear box where the person engaging the the gears just smashes them in without adequate declutch time.

Too funny! My career was automotive. I instantly knew exactly what you meant! Was that your Buxton life showing through your shark skin again?
 

RobinHood

Ultra Member
Premium Member
The SM1340s (and perhaps other models with the same feed mechanism) are notorious for hard feed disengagement forces. The pucker factor goes right up, especially when feeding to a shoulder.

Refer to page 25 of the manual.

DC1CA469-755E-4FC5-95C7-FAF9E82602CC.jpeg

The reason is the design: the engagement/disengagement is by means of axial movement of two spur gears into/out of mesh. The longitudinal feed gear becomes heavily loaded because of the gear ratio; the engagement lever has a poor mechanical advantage because of its short throw (22* up). Any kind of wear on the sleeve bearing will cause the feed gear to become harder to disengage under load because it can “cock” slightly sideways or bind up on its shaft.

I would disassemble the apron and check everything. Replace the sleeve bearing if it is worn even a bit. Deburr all gear teeth. Make sure the feed gear shaft is moving really freely in and out. Keep it well lubed by its oiler on the front of the apron after re-assembly.

A technique that works really well as far as the operation of the feed system (both long and cross) on these lathes:

a) to engage:
move the lever slowly and “feel” for the engagement while you manually move the carriage (or cross slide) in the desired direction of the feed. Ideally, you move it at the same speed that it will auto-feed after engagement. You basically synchronize the gears manually (like sifting a non-synchromesh gearbox) prior to engagement. It is quite easy to feel on the feed lever as the gears come into mesh and the lever moves like butter through the full length of travel (full up or down).

b) to disengage:
pick up the carriage movement (or cross slide) with the hand wheel in the direction of travel. “Over run” the feed rate to unload the feed gears and disengage the feed handle. The force will be next to nothing if you are synchronized with your movements.

The cross feed is not nearly as bad as the longitudinal feed for “binding up” (the gear ratio is different and there is less mass to move).

You always want full travel of the feed lever to ensure the full width of the feed gear is engaged. Partial engagement puts a huge load on a small section of gear tooth and only makes the problem worse in the long run.

Feed engagement/disengagement forces were/are a known issue for lathe designer. They went to considerable lengths to mitigate the problem. One way designers solved the problem was with the use of a worm gear/worm wheel combo. The worm can be ”separated” from the wheel under any load with little force because of the gear tooth geometry. Colchester uses such a system.
Another way to mitigate the problem is to use two saw toothed gears meshing axially (CMT Ursus).
A dog clutch (Hardinge, I think) or a friction clutch could also be used. I think Monarch and some of the SM Utilathes use the multi disc friction clutch system.
 

YotaBota

Mike
Premium Member
The SM1340s (and perhaps other models with the same feed mechanism) are notorious for hard feed disengagement forces.
My SM1120 has the same apron, it's something I haven't experienced yet but will watch for, thank you sir for that info.
 

Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
The SM1340s (and perhaps other models with the same feed mechanism) are notorious for hard feed disengagement forces. The pucker factor goes right up, especially when feeding to a shoulder.

Refer to page 25 of the manual.

View attachment 19383

The reason is the design: the engagement/disengagement is by means of axial movement of two spur gears into/out of mesh. The longitudinal feed gear becomes heavily loaded because of the gear ratio; the engagement lever has a poor mechanical advantage because of its short throw (22* up). Any kind of wear on the sleeve bearing will cause the feed gear to become harder to disengage under load because it can “cock” slightly sideways or bind up on its shaft.

I would disassemble the apron and check everything. Replace the sleeve bearing if it is worn even a bit. Deburr all gear teeth. Make sure the feed gear shaft is moving really freely in and out. Keep it well lubed by its oiler on the front of the apron after re-assembly.

A technique that works really well as far as the operation of the feed system (both long and cross) on these lathes:

a) to engage:
move the lever slowly and “feel” for the engagement while you manually move the carriage (or cross slide) in the desired direction of the feed. Ideally, you move it at the same speed that it will auto-feed after engagement. You basically synchronize the gears manually (like sifting a non-synchromesh gearbox) prior to engagement. It is quite easy to feel on the feed lever as the gears come into mesh and the lever moves like butter through the full length of travel (full up or down).

b) to disengage:
pick up the carriage movement (or cross slide) with the hand wheel in the direction of travel. “Over run” the feed rate to unload the feed gears and disengage the feed handle. The force will be next to nothing if you are synchronized with your movements.

The cross feed is not nearly as bad as the longitudinal feed for “binding up” (the gear ratio is different and there is less mass to move).

You always want full travel of the feed lever to ensure the full width of the feed gear is engaged. Partial engagement puts a huge load on a small section of gear tooth and only makes the problem worse in the long run.

Feed engagement/disengagement forces were/are a known issue for lathe designer. They went to considerable lengths to mitigate the problem. One way designers solved the problem was with the use of a worm gear/worm wheel combo. The worm can be ”separated” from the wheel under any load with little force because of the gear tooth geometry. Colchester uses such a system.
Another way to mitigate the problem is to use two saw toothed gears meshing axially (CMT Ursus).
A dog clutch (Hardinge, I think) or a friction clutch could also be used. I think Monarch and some of the SM Utilathes use the multi disc friction clutch system.

What a great writeup @RobinHood . I don't even have this problem and I prolly never will. But is pure joy to read something like that which not only addresses the issue but teaches all of us something new - no matter how knowledgeable or experienced we might be. On top of that, it's easy to see how much time, effort, and research you invested to help another member. It is inspiring.

It seems only appropriate to wish you, (and a big slough of others too many to name) who all give so much to others, an extra special happy new year! You and they are all amazing! Thank you!
 

RobinHood

Ultra Member
Premium Member
Thanks @Susquatch. Happy New Year to you and your family as well. Get well soon.

It makes it a lot easier to comment on things when one has had a chance to personally lay eyes/hands on the machines/mechanisms in question.
I had a SM 1340 with the “hard“ feed shift for many years. It was really bad when I first got it. I used to own a 9” Utilathe with the multi disc feed engage knob. I presently have the CMT and the Colchester. My SM 1120 does shift relatively easy (the machine is practically new) but one can easily feel the mechanism loading up under heavier feeds.

Any time ready to help. Don’t mind giving back as I have been fortunate enough to get great help myself from folks. So yeah, thanks for that.
 
Does your lathe feed have a slot that rides the length of the feed rod? On the back of the apron is the gearing for the feed system. If the keyway is worn you can have issues. As well if the gears are mashed you can also have problems.

Also check to see if your engagement handle is going too far - I will upload your manual / check out page 25 on the drawings / could be you have a thrust bearing gone.
Thanks for your response and the drawing ,,, FYI if you have welding questions I can help ,,, Happy New Year
 
I get out your way once in a while. My wife's mom is in a care home there. I'm not allowed in so I sit in the parking lot.

Next time she goes, I could swing by and look at it with you. I'm no wizard, but two pairs of eyes is always better than one and somebody to talk through it is always good.

I will say this. I am one of those guys who lives with minor irritations rather than fixing them. Too many exciting things I'd rather do than scratch an itch. BUT........ There is no way I would EVER live with that problem of yours. I like my deep voice too much. A problem like that would permanently alter my base frequency up several octaves.
Yes swing by next time your wife sees her mom,,, my email is hovercraft57@gmail.com
 
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