Power off.

[jcdammeyer]

Really must wire up some sort transfer switch and a genset to supplement the Lithium battery pack.
Power went off at 9:55PM.
Probably car off highway in heavy rain hit pole.
I have an extension cord from the inverter in my office downstairs to a floor lamp upstairs in the living room.
Lots of battery operated motion sensor LED lights in all the rooms.
Internet, wifi and shaw cable along with TV are not on ups at the moment. If it were earlier I'd plug those in too but sound system, TV and shaw connection all draw more than the second 1kW inverter.

 

[Ironman]

We are at the end of a long 10 km semi-circular service line. There is a colony of supposed Canadian symbols felling trees without a chainsaw along the way, and in a high wind, when the slackers go home before finishing the job, a tree is blown over the powerline. I have an Indian Lister engine running a 5kw gen and that has served us up to 71 hrs a year of outages. Before I had my shoulders replaced, it had become impossible to crank over the engine in the cold, so I bought a light tower of 8kw and put the lights and mast in the scrap metal. Now it is a little pull trailer with a self contained diesel Kubota and 120 liter fuel tank, and preheat and starts are very easy to do. We just had a 12 hr outage last week.
I have always heated with wood, but with old age betraying me, I now have propane heat, so electricity is more important to me to keep the house warm.

 

[kevin.decelles]

I hear ya. I bought this generator and wired a plug on my house. I only have electric heat (plus pellet stoves but they need power).

This is a dual fuel (gas/propane), remote start. Loud, but I don’t have neighbours to irritate.

 

[jcdammeyer]

That's what has kept me from installing a cheap genset. I'd like gasoline and NatGas instead. At the moment this is what my battery backup UPS system looks like.

Two 1kW inverters (I have a 3rd still in a box). Three DeltaQ chargers. BMS for the Lithium batteries. It's a continuous on system so AC is changed to 24V by the chargers and then into AC by the inverters. If AC vanishes the system powered this doesn't even know power is gone.

I have a vague memory of posting this info a few days ago but don't remember if it was to this forum. Apologies if I'm repeating myself.

 

[slow-poke]

Ready....

 

[slow-poke]

That's what has kept me from installing a cheap genset. I'd like gasoline and NatGas instead. At the moment this is what my battery backup UPS system looks

Two 1kW inverters (I have a 3rd still in a box). Three DeltaQ chargers. BMS for the Lithium batteries. It's a continuous on system so AC is changed to 24V by the chargers and then into AC by the inverters. If AC vanishes the system powered this doesn't even know power is gone.

I have a vague memory of posting this info a few days ago but don't remember if it was to this forum. Apologies if I'm repeating myself.

I half considered doing something like this, so I'm curious......

How long have you been using this setup?
Have you tried running the inverters at full load or near full load for an extended time?
How long will the batteries hold up with light load say 400W?
Heavy load?

Do the inverters connect to dedicated wiring or a couple of the original circuits that were originally connected to your breaker box?

Any failures?

Some inverters are pretty iffy, I connected a Canadian Tire brand to an isolated circuit in my garage and it promptly let go with a good puff of electronic smoke.

Thanks

 

[jcdammeyer]

I half considered doing something like this, so I'm curious......

How long have you been using this setup?
Have you tried running the inverters at full load or near full load for an extended time?
How long will the batteries hold up with light load say 400W?
Heavy load?

Do the inverters connect to dedicated wiring or a couple of the original circuits that were originally connected to your breaker box?

Any failures?

Some inverters are pretty iffy, I connected a Canadian Tire brand to an isolated circuit in my garage and it promptly let go with a good puff of electronic smoke.

Thanks

The initial project started in 2012 with AGM batteries, an ELCON charger, xMU control module and a PLC (not in photos) running things.
Underneath there is a large 105V power supply (now in my CNC mill) and beside that the Solar Panel Controller. The smaller red top battery is the genset starting battery.


The problem with AGM batteries is that you shouldn't discharge them past 50% SOC and after the initial bulk charge it takes forever to bring them up to 100% SOC so the diesel 30kW (115VAC, not 220VAC with center tap) ONAN generator would often carbon up. The white module TMU (Tray Management Unit) was the main control system and that talked to the PLC or a PC while the 5 CAN bus channels and relay outputs switch inputs would control various things. The gold box series (xIM) for eXtendable Interface Modules were configured as a GIM (Generator Interface module) and BIM (Battery Interface Module).

The GIM would start and stop the generator and read the flashing light fault codes and report them over CAN bus to the PMU which reported them to the rest of the system. The BIM handled all the battery charging and monitoring SOC to know when to start the generator.


We later upgraded from the ELCON 80A 28V chargers to 3 DeltaQ 650W chargers. The ELCON used CAN J1939 while the DeltaQ used CANopen. We weren't allowed to change the main software because that would require full testing and certification so instead I built a small J1939 to CANOpen translator emulating the ELCON chargers. Main software didn't require a change.


Then we upgraded to Valence brand Lithium and now the Valence BMS handles the batteries but we still used the original software in the TMU which had a back door so it could operate stand alone without a PLC running things.
I ended up with the now used test set batteries since then they later upgraded to 24V units instead of 12V units in series.

Now to answer the questions. I no longer have the generator. The inverters were going to be trashed because they had dropout fault issues when the battery voltage dropped below a certain point. We actually added 24V to 24V DC power supplies to ensure that AGM battery 21V to 28V wouldn't cause the inverters to drop out. Again the lithiums solved those problems but we no longer used those inverters so I have 3.

At 28V a 1000W inverter draws 35A. I've never have run them at that output because the wires to them would probably melt. I just run a few lamps, Router, Shaw cable TV etc.

On a power failure which here never lasts more than a few hours I run extension cords to stuff upstairs. I don't have a transfer switch or dedicated circuits although I'm starting to want that for the Furnace (Nat Gas), Freezer and Fridge. So small breaker box for those three and maybe a lamp or two running continuously off the inverters which run off the DeltaQs which run off AC.

However none of those items actually need a full time AC UPS system. So a transfer switch and switch the inverters from AC line might be the better solution.

Lithium batteries can be taken down to about 5% SOC and they are 120AH batteries so I have 240AH at 24V or about 215AH from full charge. Drawing 400W is 17A which means about 12 hours before a generator would have to be started.

I have no knowledge of what the application load was for these projects since that was beyond my security rating.

The reason I first got this project is because my TMU, for 3 trays with CANJ1939, CANopen for external communications and the relay control was originally an RMU (Rings Management Unit). Two were used in this project; one for starboard and one for the port side of the barge.


Anyway this is a 24V system so I don't think PA or CdnTire even carry those kinds of inverters. One has to go to the Solar Charging suppliers for that sort of thing.

 

[Susquatch]

I have a regular portable 20Amp generator and I run a 100ft 12G extension cord to power whatever needs to run (freezer, fridge, sump pump pump, furnace fan, a few lights) when the power goes out. Gasoline is readily available everywhere. We have gone weeks without power that way.

 

[jcdammeyer]

A friend has a Genrac whole house system running on Propane. Automatic start and switch over. But he's in North Saanich and not as likely to have power restored within a few hours.

We have 3 phase along our street and although we only use one of the 3 phases it's more likely to be restored quickly compared to a street with just one of the single phases.

 

[Susquatch]

We have 3 phase along our street and although we only use one of the 3 phases it's more likely to be restored quickly compared to a street with just one of the single phases.

We are the same. My place is the only one running on my particular lead off of the 3phase trunk line. Honking big transformer and 400 amp service - 200 in the house and another 200 in the shop. Even so, I'm surrounded by wind turbines feeding the grid. So even a 28,000Volt (?) 3phase trunk line isn't that reliable.

 

[YotaBota]

My turn, 10kw Generac whole house on propane (3x80 gallon tanks) with auto switch over, SolArk12kw solar inverter system, 12kw battery backup. Internet, fridge, nuker, waterpump and a few plugs on the critical load panel. With the SolArk we don't even notice the lights flicker when the power goes out and the solar still functions when hydro is out.

The Generac built the house in 2007, a few years later we added the solar and about three years ago we had the SolArk installed so we can probably last 3 or 4 weeks without hydro being cautious.

With just the two of us in the house the solar pretty much pays for our hydro over a year. What we over produce in the summers gets banked with hydro and that carries us thru the winter. The initial outlay for solar is costly but it's like prepaying hydro for the next 15ish years, not including the rate hikes. YMMV

 

[Ironman]

I've sort of been waiting for someone to talk about isolating so I guess it's me.
We have a farm service which means we have a breaker in a box on the power pole. If the power fails, I shut it off, which disconnects the power co. lines, then start the gen and warm it up for a few minutes, plug in the power cord, and then switch a breaker on to power the house and shop. That way if the line crew is working on a dead line, I will not be backfeeding the powerline and endanger someone.
This is not a legal, blessed by the pope and virtue signallers, way to do things. You are supposed to have an electrician wire in a special generator transfer switch that makes it impossible to backfeed the powerline. I can't argue with the safety factor. I have seen home made systems that will prevent you from throwing the main breaker to the power pole if the generator feed breaker is on, and bought or home made, this is the right way to do it.

 

[jcdammeyer]

We stayed at a friends cabin in Northern Sweden a number of years ago. For the first couple of days only some of the house worked and the oven did not. It wasn't until I went out to the power pole that I found a 3 phase breaker where one of the phases had popped. A very different system.

 

[PaulL]

Ready....
View attachment 39425

Funny, those are my exact first two generators.

 

[PaulL]

My turn, 10kw Generac whole house on propane (3x80 gallon tanks) with auto switch over, SolArk12kw solar inverter system, 12kw battery backup. Internet, fridge, nuker, waterpump and a few plugs on the critical load panel. With the SolArk we don't even notice the lights flicker when the power goes out and the solar still functions when hydro is out.

I'm loving my SolArk12kw that's powering the shop at the cabin. Apart from moving all my motors to 3 phase plus VFD it's been perfect.
I'm thinking of running a 220v line from the shop to the house to provide "grid" power for when the house solar is a little anemic. I have some new panels (upgrade for 205W to 440W), and should get new batteries, but I won't get to it this side of winter.

 

[YotaBota]

@PaulL - are you running the solar DC or using micro-inverters? Our panels are 330w but the micro-inverters will only allow 250w so for me to upgrade to a higher wattage panel would mean new inverters, $$$$$$, won't happen any time soon.

 

[Doggggboy]

47KW solar array of 192 panels feeding 4 Fronius inverters for a grid tied system.
36 KW Generac fed by 1000 gallon propane tank with automatic transfer switch.
If I did it again I'd have some sort of battery backup that would run for around 12 hours before the generator had to kick in.
And I would never go near a Generac again. I'd use anything else. Nothing but problems.

 

[PaulL]

@PaulL - are you running the solar DC or using micro-inverters? Our panels are 330w but the micro-inverters will only allow 250w so for me to upgrade to a higher wattage panel would mean new inverters, $$$$$$, won't happen any time soon.

They run DC to a Mid it Commander which manages the charging.

 

[jcdammeyer]

47KW solar array of 192 panels feeding 4 Fronius inverters for a grid tied system.
36 KW Generac fed by 1000 gallon propane tank with automatic transfer switch.
If I did it again I'd have some sort of battery backup that would run for around 12 hours before the generator had to kick in.
And I would never go near a Generac again. I'd use anything else. Nothing but problems.

That was the thing about our system. They preferred to not run the generator at night so the number of batteries were sized so that running over night and during cloudy days the system would only run the genset if it was daytime.

We had the same issues with the Barge that held the double ORing set. Had to be able to run overnight on batteries since the noise after 9PM was considered a disturbance and travelled over the water in to North Vancouver etc. We also had, for a while a Hydrogen Fuel Cell on board that quietly charged the batteries.

For the same reason if I went to a GenSet for the house I'd like to be able to run the house long enough on batteries overnight so the genset would only run during the day. Unfortunately I have trees along the South property line so solar isn't easy to install and see any sunlight and I like the trees way to much to remove them.

 

[Susquatch]

And I would never go near a Generac again. I'd use anything else. Nothing but problems.

I have zero personal experience with Generacs. They are way more generator than I need. I just need heat and refrigeration and a working sump pump. Everything else is purely optional. I refuse to spend that kinda money on these minimal needs when a little portable will do the job just fine and I don't need to worry about back powering the grid.

But lots of farmers around here have or had Generacs. I have never met anyone who would get one again. Horror stories abound. The biggest issue is service guys who say "I can't fix it. You need to buy a new one".

I've sort of been waiting for someone to talk about isolating so I guess it's me.
We have a farm service which means we have a breaker in a box on the power pole. If the power fails, I shut it off, which disconnects the power co. lines, then start the gen and warm it up for a few minutes, plug in the power cord, and then switch a breaker on to power the house and shop. That way if the line crew is working on a dead line, I will not be backfeeding the powerline and endanger someone.

Ya, the unspoken convenience issue...... I was deliberately avoiding it. It's one of those big huge giant nudge nudge wink wink issues. I generally tell people not to do it. Very few understand the back feed issue let alone how to isolate the generator from non-target circuits. So the way I figure it is simple. Those that know what they are doing are gunna do whatever they do. The rest should not be playing with such things. Easier to just plug the fridge or sump pump or freezer into an extension cord from the generator when the wall outlet is dead. Everybody can do that and it's risk free.