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Plumbing help.

jcdammeyer

jcdammeyer

John
Premium Member
3" copper drain from the toilet. Connected to plastic which is connected to the toilet flange after an elbow. The rubber transition is the specific one for copper to plastic.

Unfortunately due to age the bottom of the almost horizontal copper section has worn/aged and how has cracks and therefore a leak.

I managed to cut off the offending copper section leaving just enough for the rubber transition. Some rework with the plastic and it's all back together. And as I tightened the two screws on the transition I see the split in the copper is migrating towards the cast elbow. So this is a real temporary fix although first flush didn't leak.

It looks like I have to heat the cast elbow and remove the old 3" copper pipe piece and replace it. I don't think normal propane is hot enough. Don't dare use my Oxy/Acc as likely too hot. I'm thinking one of those MAPP torches?

And best to just solder in a new longer piece of copper and then redo the transition?

ToiletTransition.jpg


edit:
Here's a picture of the piece of pipe I cut out.

OldPipe.jpg
 
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1. Replace all the copper/brass with ABS, you'll never have to play with again. The only pita I see might be replacing the vent pipe, roof work but look at all the casting stock you'll have.
2. Extend the ABS to reach the copper elbow, quick and easy.
3. Cut out the first elbow and replace with ABS to there. I think I see a gouge in the piece of copper pipe where it joins the ABS.

Plastic pipe is a lot easier to solder. lol
 
If it is cracking like that I would be inclined to cut out all those elbows and as much copper as I could and redo it with ABS and the rubber couplings. Or remove as much of the copper as possible and do it with ABS to couplings or right to the drains. But that would depend on how comfortable you are with plumbing.

As a side note, I worked as a plumbing helper for a summer when I was 16. We had to remove a cast iron stack pipe in a really old house. The outside of the pipe was about 4". The inside clear area was about 3/4", the rest was corrosion and "stuff" stuck to the pipe. Was the inside of the pipe you removed clean?
 
The copper pipe is likely cracked because it's a low point on a horizontal and is always wet. Chlorides and sulphates build up and eat away the copper.The rest of the vertical and sloped piping is probably OK. 3" DWV pipe is 3-1/8" O.D., the bell of the elbow is probably about 3-1/2" O.D. Same O.D. as 3" PVC pipe. Quick-n-dirty an IPS to ABS rubber transition coupling would fit over the elbow and seal on the outside. Good for ten years.

Fernco make an extra-long 3" coupling that should work with what you have.


MAPP gas will work just fine for soldering 3" DWV, just keep it moving to spread the heat evenly. It's not like welding or brazing, the joint only needs to get to about 600* for the plumbing solder to flow properly.
 
Hruul said:
If it is cracking like that I would be inclined to cut out all those elbows and as much copper as I could and redo it with ABS and the rubber couplings. Or remove as much of the copper as possible and do it with ABS to couplings or right to the drains. But that would depend on how comfortable you are with plumbing.

As a side note, I worked as a plumbing helper for a summer when I was 16. We had to remove a cast iron stack pipe in a really old house. The outside of the pipe was about 4". The inside clear area was about 3/4", the rest was corrosion and "stuff" stuck to the pipe. Was the inside of the pipe you removed clean?
Click to expand...
Yes. Quite clean. A bit of sludge along the sides above perhaps the normal non-impeded flow.
 
whydontu said:
The copper pipe is likely cracked because it's a low point on a horizontal and is always wet. Chlorides and sulphates build up and eat away the copper.The rest of the vertical and sloped piping is probably OK. 3" DWV pipe is 3-1/8" O.D., the bell of the elbow is probably about 3-1/2" O.D. Same O.D. as 3" PVC pipe. Quick-n-dirty an IPS to ABS rubber transition coupling would fit over the elbow and seal on the outside. Good for ten years.

Fernco make an extra-long 3" coupling that should work with what you have.


MAPP gas will work just fine for soldering 3" DWV, just keep it moving to spread the heat evenly. It's not like welding or brazing, the joint only needs to get to about 600* for the plumbing solder to flow properly.
Click to expand...
We had the same issue with the half bath a number of years ago. Behind the wall the copper toilet pipe started leaking. Same issue as this one but cracked into the brass fitting. My solution was to couple the ABS to the outside of the brass fitting. Only discovered the leak after it finally made it out onto the floor and some cardboard boxes stacked by the wall. Once the wall covering came off the mould smell was pretty bad. We wondered where that was coming from.

Interesting. The rubber Copper-ABS I have has two different IDs. It's thicker for the copper side and has ribs and even a stop ridge like ABS couplers. The ones in the link look like they may require brute force to clamp onto the copper. I looked at those at RONA too.

I think the best thing is to get all the parts and recreate the tree but just transition to the copper stack. I agree it's likely not got any corrosion in it.
 
Propane is plenty hot enough, but obviously doesn't deliver as much heat as O/A. I bet it would come off with propane, but can't remember doing one that large. It may take a bigger torch than the hardware store models. A 20lb cylinder with a turbo torch is my go to in the shop for silver soldering so that is what I use for plumbing work. Drape a wet rage over the end you want to leave in tact.

I had a similar occurrence with a kitchen drain. Put in a new kitchen and used the old drain. Drove me nuts because I thought copper the premium solution you went to not have these problems so i'd be good. I tried patching and then removing a small section, but problems reoccurred ...... if one bit of pipe is rotten it may keep going so I like your idea of getting rid of all the horizontal stuff and go back to T. At least there the joint is fairly easy to access, for heating and and pulling the offending section free
 
Your question was will a propane torch heat it enough? The answer is yes. I have done this in my old house, long since demolished.
You should use a good 'turbo' torch, not the cheap things good for making popcorn.
 
While we are on the get the shit out of here subject, I would like to mention something that has worked very well for me. People that have a toilet that has to be plunged, and have a wax seal, sooner or later have a rotten floor around the toilet. The plunger pulse will loosen, blow through the wax seal and a small leak of a spoonful of liquid will escape every flush and it will sit under the lino or tile.
I am using these Fernco toilet seals and you can remove and re-install a toilet with no wax mess. Any hardware can get them or go to a plumbing supply.
Wish I knew what the glue is...you can press these into place on the toilet and immediately pick up the whole toilet by lifting it with the rubber seal. Very strong stuff.
 
My humble opinion, what I would do here is remove the first elbow completely, stub the 3" copper to about 6" from the second elbow and extend the plastic to there and re use the rubber coupling.

If you have never done it before, working and soldering that 3"copper is not that easy, it takes a lot of heat and moving constantly everything has to be well fit, super clean and lots of flux.

Replacing the stack would be a costly nightmare if you can avoid it. The damage is likely localized at the horizontal section.

Good luck
 
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