Older lathes

[Millwright1009]

At what point is it worth owning an older lathe? Was going to look at a pinacho 180 yesterday for 1500 but I couldn’t find any info on it anywhere. Kind of glad it sold before I got the chance to look because I probably would’ve bought it and worried about the details later.
If you buy an older lathe chances are it’s going to be an odd voltage like 575 or 600 at 3 phase. Then I would need a transformer and phase converter.
I work construction and on the site I’m at now we have a king 12”x40” lathe. It’s a 220 single phase. Also have the king manual milling. The mill I’m not fussy on. It’s not rigid enough for most milling. But the lathe seems to work just fine for anything that needs to be done.
I’d like to have one but can’t justify 5 grand on something I might use a couple times a month.

 

[Brent H]

@Millwright1009 : I have a lathe from, probably, the late 1960’s - a Standard Modern 10” Utilathe. I have a thread on here about all the repairs and updating I did to it. Thankfully it is all up and running very well and I find it works great. Many other folks on here also have older machines.

I think the trick is to shop around and see if you can find an older machine that was not abused and in good running condition. Some parts can be made on the lathe to fix it up even better, like the cross feed nuts etc. The “older” machines were typically made heavier and out of better quality materials - not always true, but if they are running 30 to what ever years later it’s a pretty nice thing.

power is not often as hard to change as you would think, may cost a bit to change a motor from 575 to 240 volt but if the lathe is in great condition it is not that big a deal.

you can also find some used King or other lathes out there that are in good condition.

 

[DPittman]

I'm no expert but here's my two cents, IF you can find an old lathe with the features you want and in a size you want and its not worn out THEN you would likely enjoy the old lathe, if you are ok with the purchase price. However it seems to me that most old lathes I look at are either big industrial size (16" swing+) that are not suitable for my hobby shop, or lack features such as metric thread cutting, variable speed, quick change gears box, no quick change tool post, etc. Now things can be upgraded and changed on these old machines and some easily and fairly cheap ( quick change tool post) but then that adds to to the cost.
Part availability may be an issue with some old lathes but new asian made machinery is not always easy to find parts for either.
Most old lathes were made with far better iron and craftsmanship than today's hobby class asian made stuff.
I think for myself I would be in heaven if I could find an old standard modern 12" utilathe that wasn't abused or worn out. Seeing how I'm dreaming ...I think a Hardinge lathe would be just the item for me.

I run a small Asian benchtop and like that it was affordable and that there are a lot of affordable accessories available for it. I had a smaller old Atlas lathe before and liked the quality of the little machine but the size and features were more limited.

 

[Millwright1009]

One place I’ve worked in the past had about a dozen lathes mostly from 1940s-60s. I never used them much but for the most part they are all still functioning as they should.
I’ll find one eventually. No much selection here on the island.
The thing about king and brands like it is that parts are easily accessible.
I’ve been thinking about the kind 16/40 mill lathe combo but reviews kind of turned me on it. I have a big enough garage/ shop here at home with 220 to get a decent size lathe. I’m thinking a 13-14” would be perfect. As for the length I’m not to picky. Not often going to need any more the 24” bed length if I think about it

 

[Tom Kitta]

Well depends on what do you mean by "older" - my first thought of "older" was from before WWI. As for machines from 1960s that depends on use and on the machine. For example my small 10x20 Chipmaster will dance around any new King 10x20 lathe - it is way, way more accurate machine and far more versatile. Heck it will easily outpace anything from King in 12x36 range except very long items. It was made in late 1960s.

Pinacho 180 looks like a 14 x 30 lathe. Unless it was driven over by a truck or dropped from a building or super abused 1500 for it was a total steal. It is also made in Span - so a well made machine. In decent condition it should be worth around 3000. At least in AB.

 

[Millwright1009]

i Was thinking the same thing about the pinacho, but I couldn’t get info on it from the guy. He must’ve bought a shop with equipment because he was selling off a few things. All he said was first 1500 takes it. I would’ve sent him the money then and there but I couldn’t even find parts for it or a manual anywhere online so I figured I’d look at then decide. But it sold the next day. Oh well I’m sure I’ll find something eventually.
As for the king 12x36, I’ve been using it a fair bit at work. Most recent I took a 64mm stud to turn down to 40 mm for a excavator bucket pin. Lol yes I know it’s a lot to turn down on that thing. But when I left I was at around 46 mm and right along the whole length of 350 mm it was all within 2-3 thou.. that isn’t to bad if you ask me. I was taking the deepest cut I could at the fastest speed rate I figured it could handle.

 

[Tom Kitta]

Don't worry about parts so much or manual. I do not have parts or manuals for most of my machines. I actually never even looked for some manuals. It is "nice to have" category. For 1500 it should sell within 1h if in somewhat OK condition - it was a steal.

You find something eventually - just have to look.

Regarding accuracy - 95% of the work one does on a lathe there is little need for accuracy above what king does. The main difference is making things to about half a thou accuracy for lightly pressed bearings. Problem with accuracy in a tenth range is that it is expensive and easy to loose if machine is even a bit abused or simply used a lot. Also a skilled operator can fix a lot of issues.

A deal like you just missed (unless it was in terrible condition) may take around a year or so to come around again - at least in my case they seem to be a year turn around time.

 

[Millwright1009]

Thanks for all your input. I will find something eventually.
as for the mill lathe combo I think I will pass and wait for a good used machine.
I do find them on online auctions but the shipping is what kills the deal for me usually.

 

[Brent H]

There are 2 12” standard moderns in Sudbury for 1500 each and a few other sized ones for 2900 each ..... gotta get my long haul lathe business going ....

 

[Millwright1009]

That pinacho is back on, quick question. I wish I knew somebody I could call to get an answer but the reason buddy is selling is because his phase converter gave out.
you think I would be able to change the motor out for a single phase?
It’s a 3hp 600 v 3 phase on it now

no other electronics besides a light that doesn’t work anymore anyways

 

[Tom Kitta]

Almost always you can change motor - the main issue is how everything is wired and how much extra work would need to be done. The problem is there is usually some motor starter and other circuits involved such as transformer for the lamp. Motor mounting can also be a bit of an issue. So it may be a bit harder then just switching A to B.

Some machines come with a transformer that is for all voltages - 240, 480 and 600. Some run their switches off low voltage such as 120v.

Many older machines use ancient stuff for which there are no parts unless you rob a museum - so you may be forced to simply replace a bunch of starter circuits. Say two - one for main motor, one for coolant pump.

If planning to add some more machines it is WAY easier to get a rotary phase converter.

Some machines are next to impossible to change to 1ph - these that have for example motor build into housing (drill presses) - some machines have strange 2 speed motors that are very difficult to get in 1ph & if you get a regular motor you loose some speed settings.

Some people convert from 1ph to 3ph + converter - this has been posted on the board, it get you infinite speeds. If you have 2 speed motor you may replace with regular 3ph and add a converter - through not economical for many drill presses.

I have 240 and 600 in my shop. I still need 480 for one machine or do a rather nasty re-doing of all controls + two motors.

 

[Millwright1009]

This lathe I believe has one speed on the motor, it comes with a different driven pulley to change the output speed if needed. Other then that it’s just the light for electronics.

reading online it’s easy to say I’ll be in 2-3 grand on transformers/ converters which is more then I’m willing to get into right now.

 

[Tom Kitta]

2-3k? Wow who wrote that??? Rotary converter is around 150-300 for the converter online. Plus motor - I can sell you one cheap. Plus wires - you have to know where you need one and where are your tools.

Transformer if you need one, is around 150 - 250. They are bulky so one needs to go around having one - i.e. avoid

So in total its few hundred CAD for rotary in say 7.5hp range or say 5hp range. With all in.

Or you can get cheap Chinese phase converter for around 250.

 

[Millwright1009]

Hmm that’s not so bad, I called a shop and he will get back to me tomorrow with a quote for a vfd. I believe I will need a phase converter as well. The motor is a 3hp 600 v 3 phase.

 

[Tom Kitta]

Yes you would need a transformer as well - if you get a quote from a shop don't be surprised if it is around 2000. Look over switches in you machine and see whatever you can just pop in a 3hp 240 motor. I have few at my home.

 

[Millwright1009]

Yes that’s what I’m thinking as well.
I never picked up this lathe yet. I was trying to get more info before I buy. I asked about electrical, the only thing electrical on it is a light and the motor. So I’m thinking it would be an easy switch.
princess auto has 3 hp 240v motors. One on sale now for 299

 

[kevin.decelles]

@Tom Kitta can you post a link to the type of converter you had in mind ? I see all sorts of ranges out there , curious to see what you were thinking .


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[Millwright1009]

Talking to an electrician today and basically told me it’s not worth my time and money changing my electrical to the 600 3 phase.
He suggested me to find another motor to fit the lathe either 240 v single for it or a 240 v 3 phase with a vfd.
He needed a frame size to get me a quote which I don’t have.

 

[Tom Kitta]

http://phaseconverterusa.com/WNY-Supply_bymfg_2-0-1.html

5hp is 138 USD with free shipping in US so a bit more to Canada. OR you can just get a kit & provide your own box.

This is to make your own rotary converter. I have 15hp at home - I have build it sort of quick by not looking at price too much and excluding wiring outside its around 500 CAD. Wiring adds another 500 in my case (I have a big garage).

 

[PeterT]

Thats a good website, Tom. Lts f other goodies of interest - VFD, start/run capacitors... They don't show motors but have a note to 'call for prices'.

Back to phase converter, not shopping but just curious - I hear they can be noisy. I didn't see something like a dB rating on them. Is that even a thing or they are all kind of the same in that regard?