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Tips/Techniques New VFD questions

Tips/Techniques

Tomc938

Ultra Member
Premium Member
So my VFD arrived today from Amazon.

The connections for the power in and out hardly look large enough to run normal household wire, NVM the 8 gauge I ran to the lathe for the old 220 1.5 hp motor.

What are you guys running/from the VFD controller in your applications? I can't see the lugs I have for 8 gauge wire fitting into these small connection spots. The are only 0.28" wide.
 

justin1

Super User
For a 2 HP 3phase motor 220v I think they draw 7 amps max so coming out of the VFD with 14/3 is more then adequate, as for input 14/2 should be fine aswell for 2 HP as single phase 220v draws max 13 amps but doesn't hurt to use 12/2 and if you use stranded wires I would recommend crimping a pin on the wires or solder them as the Chinese VFD don't give much room to work with.

For the control wires you can pretty much use anything most likely can reuse all the wires that came with lathe unless you wire in a switch inbetween motor and VFD or from breaker to VFD then you should buy a motor rated switch.

I don't think you'll have any issue running off 15amp beaker and 14 guage feeders as unless you stall your motor you'll probly never hit the max amp draw. I run a 7.5 HP motor using 14/3 at 380v but i think I ran a #8 to VFD and that was probly on the lean side for amps if I was to stall motor I would probly trip breaker.

1703727325655.png
 

jcdammeyer

John
Premium Member
So my VFD arrived today from Amazon.

The connections for the power in and out hardly look large enough to run normal household wire, NVM the 8 gauge I ran to the lathe for the old 220 1.5 hp motor.

What are you guys running/from the VFD controller in your applications? I can't see the lugs I have for 8 gauge wire fitting into these small connection spots. The are only 0.28" wide.
1.5HP is around 750W*1.5 = 1125W. If you are running 220VAC then that's 5.11A. Even 14g household wire would be adequate with a 15A dual pole breaker for the 220VAC circuit.
 

thestelster

Ultra Member
Premium Member
So my VFD arrived today from Amazon.

The connections for the power in and out hardly look large enough to run normal household wire, NVM the 8 gauge I ran to the lathe for the old 220 1.5 hp motor.

What are you guys running/from the VFD controller in your applications? I can't see the lugs I have for 8 gauge wire fitting into these small connection spots. The are only 0.28" wide.
Hey Tom, have a look at the attached screen shot.
 

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thestelster

Ultra Member
Premium Member
Guys, it doesn't quite work like that. Have a look at the attached.

When you are powering a 3phase motor from single phase source:

"The rule of thumb Hitachi recommends is to start with the 3-phase motor’s nameplate full load amperage (FLA) rating and double it."
 

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Dabbler

ersatz engineer
@thestelster What you say is correct, for dual input VFDs. If you buy a single input VFD designed for single phase ONLY, then no de-rating is required. I have run a TECO 510 2HP model on several 2HP motors for 8-ish years now, all from 240V 1PH, and had no problems whatsoever.

@Tomc938 @jcdammeyer is right on. Having wired/rewired a bunch of machines in my shop, I am happy to say that 16 gauge, 4 wire stranded, or 14 gauge 4 wire stranded is the right cable to use. Do NOT use household wire as suggested above - you might think that solid copper is meant there, and solid wire would be a disaster.

This is the wire you should use for you motor-VFD connection:

 

justin1

Super User
I am happy to say that 16 gauge, 4 wire stranded, or 14 gauge 4 wire stranded is the right cable to use. Do NOT use household wire as suggested above - you might think that solid copper is meant there, and solid wire would be a disaster.
I have powered my equipment with solid wire cause I happen to have more of it laying around then stranded works fine for runing power from VFD to motor. 16/4 cabtire is rated to 13 amps so it works great too and easier to work with. I would run solid wire from panel to a plug then run stranded for rest of the system.

Home Depot sells cabtire by the foot or buy old extension cords off marketplace and cut it up if your cheap like me 100' of extension cord can be 25$ to 50$ used

I wouldn't use solid wire for running the 12v control power from VFD just be a pain in ass and there is better options. It would work just not best choice.

Stranded wire is called cabtire and they count the conductors differently 16/4 or 14/4 or so on as they count the ground wire in the wire count were in solid wire housing wire they don't count the ground but there is 4 wires total in 14/3 or 12/3. So if you do use stranded keep that in mind when buying wire.

I would also recommend using crimp on terminal pins with stranded would make your life easier and make the wiring look sexier. Not 100% needed can just jam loose wire into holes and works fine too but if you end up trouble shooting and moving wire around dozen times trying to figure out what wires do what it's much nicer to have the crimped on pins
1703772556205.png
 

Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
VFD wiring can be a dog's breakfast. There are only two ways to wire a VFD. The right way and any other way that works.

They are basically pretty forgiving devices with lots of built in self protection.

@Tomc938 - don't let the comments above from @Dabbler & @thestelster dissuade you from using a VFD. Both of them have fairly extensive experience and they are both right.

VFD's come in many flavours. The one you want (and the one I hope you ordered) should be a single phase 220V in and 220V 3ph out.

I "believe" that the Hitachi Application note that Stel referenced above is the advice that Hitachi gives for when a 3ph in and 3ph out VFD is used with just 1ph in. That seems like a strange configuration. But it really isn't. Three phase VFD's generally provide two design functions. 1. To convert 1ph to 3ph and 2. To provide variable frequency output to control motor speed. Not all VFD'S do both.

It isn't necessary to increase the current rating when using a VFD that is DESIGNED to work with 1ph input. HOWEVER, it will not do any harm if you do. And it's always good to err on the safe side.

Primarily because a mill motor needs to move around as the head configuration is changed, the motor wiring should be stranded. Stranded wire is more flexible. Single core wire could work harden over time and crack and/or short circuit. I say primarily because safety is always a primary concern. However, a VFD's output also has high frequency components in it that also benefit from using stranded wire. That's why speaker wire is always stranded. Although it is configurable, the VFD carrier frequency is almost always in the audio frequency spectrum - typically between 5khz and 20khz.

The wire Dabbler recommended will work just fine. However, it isn't the best wire. The best wire has four stranded wires in it that are individually shielded. It is specifically designed for use with a VFD. For very long wiring runs between the VFD and motor, shielded wire is definitely recommended and might even be required. However, it isn't critical for short wiring runs with the VFD located next to the machine. If you can find shielded cable, by all means use it (and tell me where you got it!). If not, stranded flexible unshielded cable will work. I have unshielded cable on my machine for now. I plan to upgrade to shielded wire when I can find some without paying a king's ransom for it. I'll also buy enough so I can share it with other members who might want some. 50ft would serve 5 of us! Don't hold your breath waiting for me though, just get the regular stranded wire from home depot or wherever and start using your mill.

Regarding your original question about the wire gauge. 14 gauge wire is totally sufficient for your application with a 1.5 hp motor. 12 gauge wire would be better but isn't necessary. 8 gauge is totally unnecessary and gross overkill. Save that valuable 8 gauge wire for places where it is needed.

I hope that helps without getting more confusing.
 

DPittman

Ultra Member
Premium Member
I wired my my two vfds up a couple years ago and while I was doing it it seemed like a nightmare. I had lots of interference problems with my separate tachometer wiring and power supply. In the end after it was all done I remember thinking it wasn't so bad ONCE I had it all figured out. Now I'm soon going to move machines to a new shop and am going to have to rewire and start from scratch again.:confused:
 

thestelster

Ultra Member
Premium Member
My apologies, the attachment I provided was for powering 3phase motors over 5hp, from single phase power.

You guys know a hell of a lot more than I do, but I just follow the manufacturer's requirements.

So for instance, in the specs for the WJ200 inverter, for a 2hp motor used in Constant Torque requirements, it suggests to use the 015SF inverter, at a rated output of 8.0a. And when looking at the Wire and Fuse Size table, for that inverter model, it suggests using AWG10 wire and a fuse no greater than 30a.
 

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justin1

Super User
I've heard that rule of thumb for VFD thing before. I think it's more for pumps or equipment running peak amps continuously vs what us hobbyist are gonna use it for. My 7.5 HP lathe turning at lowest rpm (12.5) which should put most load on VFD if I remember correctly when I had amp meter on it only drew 2/3rd ish of the peak voltage on tag.

I use a 10hp AliExpress VFD for my big lathe it's 7.5 HP and my 10hp air compressor it is single phase input seems to work fine it cost me 200$ shipped so not too worried about burning it out as long as I get few years out of it. anyways compared to a 1600$ good quality VFD I can burn out lots of them before I would of been better off getting the expensive stuff lol

But if I was running a small factory and had circ pumps moving product I would probly over size and use good quality VFD as down time isn't worth the savings of cheaping out. But for turning stuff handful of hours per week I'll take the risk on cheap stuff and use the money saved for more tools :)
 

Susquatch

Ultra Member
Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
And when looking at the Wire and Fuse Size table, for that inverter model, it suggests using AWG10 wire

Ya, but Tom's motor is 1.5hp. The same chart says 12g for that.

As @justin1 implies above, the problem with oem recommendations is that they have to cover any and all possible uses. In the majority of cases, the applications are industrial with long leads (with associated voltage losses) and continuous loads like pumps.

For hobby applications with short wiring runs and intermittent usage, it isn't necessary to be so conservative. 14g is sufficient. But as I stated above, it certainly doesn't hurt to go a bit bigger if you have the option.

I'm curious, what kind of wire does Hitachi recommend for output wiring to the motor?
 

YotaBota

Mike
Premium Member
Morning Tom,

I have the TECO 510 2hp VFD on my 1.5hp 220v 8A lathe,
I'm running 12g extension cord from the wall to the contactor,
12g extension cord from the contactor to the VFD
12g extension cord from the VFD to the motor and
shielded Cat5 cable for the control cable. Control being fwd/rev and jog.
The tach power is a dual voltage walwart from the contactor output.

The extension cord is just a hardware store cord and the Cat5 is one I had in the bin. Haven't had any issues with this setup.
 

thestelster

Ultra Member
Premium Member
Ya, but Tom's motor is 1.5hp. The same chart says 12g for that.
Well, 12g. for 1.5hp Variable Torque applications, or 1hp Constant Torque applications. But I honestly don't know the difference in our situations, so I always use the Constant Torque specs.

I'm curious, what kind of wire does Hitachi recommend for output wiring to the motor?
They don't say. But I use T90 stranded wire in EMT conduit for the input to the VFD, and VFD cable to the motor. Again, I really don't know if the VFD Cable makes any difference in my applications, but that's what I've read from Industry pros, so that's what I use.
 

Tomc938

Ultra Member
Premium Member
Thanks to everyone for the input. I really appreciate it.

I should point out my wire selection was governed by three things: 1) I am half farmer, so bigger is always better. 2) my mill came with 8 gauge wire and 3) I had a chunk of 8 gauge the right length to wire my lathe.

The lathe currently has a 220volt 1.5 hp single phase motor. The 3 phase is a 2 hp 220v. (Thanks again Justin!)

The VFD I bought is this one:

I may admit I was expecting the VFD to be about 3X bigger than it is, but I guess electronics are getting smaller and more robust all the time.

It’s going to be a couple of weeks before I get the VFD wired, but looking forward to it!
 
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