garball
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Myford Super 7
- Thread starter garball
- Start date
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140mower
Don
But will most likely get it...... Or very close to it.
Tom Kitta
Ultra Member
Nah, unlikely. Unless he finds someone not too smart. You can get Super7 for around 5k. Maybe 5.5k. Still I would never pay myself 5k for super 7 - totally not worth it. Regular ML7 is a step above mini lathe. Super 7 may be somewhere around 10x22 - but if I had a choice on which machine I would rather use it would be 10x22. And I did own a MyFord for few months, so I know what I am talking about. They are economy British made machines - sort of like mini lathes of their day. Nothing fancy there, build to a low price point.
My British made Chipmaster is just 10x20 but does multiple circles around these - and if super 7 is 5000 then Chipmaster must be 15000
But old Chippy is top of the line British stuff - not economy.
My British made Chipmaster is just 10x20 but does multiple circles around these - and if super 7 is 5000 then Chipmaster must be 15000
But old Chippy is top of the line British stuff - not economy.
Sure, I’ll spend $7200 for old iron, instead of buying one of these for $5k US.
DRO, power cross feed, DI-4 chuck mount, separate leadscrew and power feed shafts, variable speed. All stuff I’m willing to sacrifice to own a Myford.
<sarcasm>
DRO, power cross feed, DI-4 chuck mount, separate leadscrew and power feed shafts, variable speed. All stuff I’m willing to sacrifice to own a Myford.
<sarcasm>
Attachments
wow, that PM is 5000 US$?
I wouldn't pay that for either, but if it had to be between the two, if not worn, at about the same price, I think the Myford is perhaps the better choice. I've had myfords apart and I've surveyed some low cost Chinese stuff, there is no comparison in the quality of the fit and manufacture. I haven't had a PM apart so maybe that isn't fair, but with the info I have on how they're made that's how I'd go. Well, how I'd really go, is a used Standard Modern or equivalent for better quality and a lot less money than either
Individual choice of course; based on my experience that would be mine.
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Tom Kitta
Ultra Member
The problem with MyFord is that it is very old design model makers machine. Not professional at all by 1950s standard. Super 7 tried to fix some of the glaring problems later on, and to some degree it did, but the main thing it was that it is still a model makers machine.
I have taken parts of my MyFord apart and through better then some low cost Chinese stuff it was clearly not even close to "top notch". I would venture to guess that if we did take a brand new BB (so certainly not top notch) 10x22 it would be more precise machine then your average used MyFord.
I think the problem here is that someone taken apart some cheap Chinese junk that was from say 2002 and say "OMG". Heck, plenty of "tools" from China today & most from India are "OMG". But things move fast, for China 2002 and 2022 is like 100 years in US terms, i.e. its like looking at 1922 car and 2022 car - say a Ford. Same thing could be said of Japan.
Also Chinese frequently compete on price alone & the cheapest half crap that market accepts is in. So its partly our fault for accepting some cheap crappy stuff.
Notice that most brand name drills are made in China & many of them out perform US made drills - heck Project Farm did a check and China was doing as well as US and others. It was just China competing on quality not price.
Now I am not against old Iron, but come on pp - technology moves forward even in machine space & Chinese / Taiwanese stuff which was not made to be cheapest possible will easily out perform design circa WWII that was to add centered around "economy" solution.
I think one of the allures of owning old iron is being unique. I mean anyone can get a 10x22 from BB - but having MyFord may make you feel extra special. Its like owning old classic car. But come on, I feel few pp will say their 1967 Corvette is better then say 2022 as far as driving performance is concerned - you do not see professionals race old cars at all. OTOH 1967 can be more expensive then say 2022 due to "collectors value".
I have taken parts of my MyFord apart and through better then some low cost Chinese stuff it was clearly not even close to "top notch". I would venture to guess that if we did take a brand new BB (so certainly not top notch) 10x22 it would be more precise machine then your average used MyFord.
I think the problem here is that someone taken apart some cheap Chinese junk that was from say 2002 and say "OMG". Heck, plenty of "tools" from China today & most from India are "OMG". But things move fast, for China 2002 and 2022 is like 100 years in US terms, i.e. its like looking at 1922 car and 2022 car - say a Ford. Same thing could be said of Japan.
Also Chinese frequently compete on price alone & the cheapest half crap that market accepts is in. So its partly our fault for accepting some cheap crappy stuff.
Notice that most brand name drills are made in China & many of them out perform US made drills - heck Project Farm did a check and China was doing as well as US and others. It was just China competing on quality not price.
Now I am not against old Iron, but come on pp - technology moves forward even in machine space & Chinese / Taiwanese stuff which was not made to be cheapest possible will easily out perform design circa WWII that was to add centered around "economy" solution.
I think one of the allures of owning old iron is being unique. I mean anyone can get a 10x22 from BB - but having MyFord may make you feel extra special. Its like owning old classic car. But come on, I feel few pp will say their 1967 Corvette is better then say 2022 as far as driving performance is concerned - you do not see professionals race old cars at all. OTOH 1967 can be more expensive then say 2022 due to "collectors value".
Most mechanical electronic things get better with time. I would never argue that. Continuous improvement is a fundamental part of progress.
But that said, give me a 1970 muscle car to drive any day of the week. It's more than vintage mystique or collectability. It's also raw uncivilized pre-emissions power that feels ABSOLUTELY AMAZING!
Just sayin..... LOL!
For 7200$ I would buy a new Chinese 12x36 or maybe 14x40 (depending on the deal you strike) in a heart beat over an old probabaly worn out 7" lathe
I agree with @Tom Kitta 100%, this isn't 2002 any more, I used to buy Chinese stuff back then off eBay.....what was available then and what is available now is not even in the same league....it may not be 15000$ American/German/Canadian quality, but you sure as shit didn't pay that, and for what you did pay it's perfectly fine
I would wager it was the same with Japanese products in what the 50's/60's...it was considered junk then, move forward a couple decades and it's considered quality
I agree with @Tom Kitta 100%, this isn't 2002 any more, I used to buy Chinese stuff back then off eBay.....what was available then and what is available now is not even in the same league....it may not be 15000$ American/German/Canadian quality, but you sure as shit didn't pay that, and for what you did pay it's perfectly fine
I would wager it was the same with Japanese products in what the 50's/60's...it was considered junk then, move forward a couple decades and it's considered quality
gerritv
Gerrit
Just add fuel, lots and lots of fuel; what ever doesn't get burned gets breathed in by anyone following too close. No electronics, no extra plumbing, just exactly what is needed and nothing more. Is that what you meant @Susquatch ?
There are probably still black circles on the wall of our parking spot at Palace Place from start ups Attachments
What do you think about manual machine tool technology has improved in say the last 50 years? DRO sure, but its an easy bolt on (and no super important for a lathe imo). What else? About all that has changed in the last 50 years for manual machine tools is they've gotten cheaper buy using lower quality components, cast iron and materials and the big one, the sacrificing careful fitting of bearing surfaces; an unseen attribute unless you print and survey them, that is perhaps the core of what makes a quality machine tool.
Suppose you found '68 DSG or a Schaublin 102 or Monarch 10ee brand new in the packing grease in the back of warehouse, so there is no wear. Wear is legit reason to pass on old...put then you;d be passing because of wear not "old" technology. How is a manual machine made today better than one of those because "technology has moved forward"? My late 1800 Rivet 608 was guranteed to hold a tenth over 6"....yeah better get some that superior new technology
Not for me, I love driving a modern car. 100x better than the crap of the past. Buddy of mine ran a 10.2 quarter mile at Caugya in an Audi S4 with a 3.0 engine, wins at the track and an awesome handling daily driver. A car with a 3.0 in 60's might not have made it up the hill.
Machines or cars, its only about the performance. That's why I've filled my shop with Schaublin, Levin, Monarch, DSG, Holbrook, Rivett, Boley etc lathes. Without a lot of zero's you can't get machines comparable in quality today. There are lots of reason to buy new but I can't see how there is a 'new technology is better' argument in the realm of a manual lathe
but give me a fast new car anyday
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Tom Kitta
Ultra Member
You said it same way as I did - old iron is fine as long as it was something quite good in its day - hence in your shop I probably will not find... Atlas.
Say you found an old MyFord in grease or an old Atlas - there is a big difference here between these two and 10EE.
Its like finding old Chevy Chevette still in original condition vs. finding an old Ferrrari in original condition. Few pp will be excited about the chevy. But never used, in perfect condition 1970s Ferrari? That would made the news.
Back to MyFord, what does a modern machine have? Well, for starters, unless you are talking about super 7 (I think), they have modern bearings! Then they have other cool modern stuff, like power feeds, X and Y (only Super 7 has both), usually they have at least one lead screw and another shaft for power feed. Big bore - I think ML7 both versions is like 3/4? I know its tiny. Most machines this class have 1.5".
Fine speed control, most small machines have infinite speeds via VFD - they also have much bigger motor (you can do so in ML7 as well, but then you need to play around with belts as belts have limited amount of power they can transfer.)
I also believe modern 10x22 will be out of the box better ground then brand new MyFord.
Modern chuck mounting - not a screw on.
Certainly more beefy design, including tail stock.
Cheaper and easier to get accessories / parts - did you know that a used gear box for MyFord costs like just under $2000 cad (!)
Yes I know 10EE has a lot of that - and so does my Chipmaster - but MyFord does not!
When comparing used 10EE in average condition and this MyFord in average condition I would venture the 10EE should sell for like 30k (!) or more, you get so much more of a lathe!
So the main tech push in manual lathes for workshop use (not some specialized lab) has been in adding luxury features to economy machines while at the same time dropping price point a LOT. Features that 10x22 has build in, would be found on similar size lathe in 1950s only on top of the end machines - like I stated somewhere else, our time traveling 10x22 would only be joked about regarding it super light weight. It would be seen as uber light weight 10EE.
As for more specialized manual lathes they are getting more CNC functionality, such that infinite feeds / threads. Also more bearing choices are pushing for big bore lathes all over the place. Auto oiling is now a "mid level" feature.
Tom, forget about Myfords. My post was about your idea that modern is better because of technology. A VFD is a cost saving measure and a downgrade from a manual transmission. You are mistaken if you think well done plane bearing is inferior to low cost Chinee roller bearings (in manys and appications they are superior), however lathes having rolling element bearings have been around for probablly 100 years or more. Nothing modern about the bearings. Cam locks around for the about same. Power feeds on X and Z, forever.
The best machines made (the few that are left), are still scraped in btw. You don't see because they scrape parts into the ground bed. Its difficult to grind some mates, ie head-stock alignment, carriage to bed etc. The dovetails aren't that big deal, I've ground them, still....you think they all have good bearing now? They're mess....when you someone printing one, a new, they are terrible. Before Standard Modern shut down a few years ago its how all theres were made, hand scraped to the bed....of course that's probably in part why they are not around (or least around as they were).
I'm still not hearing anything as to why technology has moved forward such that "modern" machines are superior to those made in the past
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I stand by my original assessment.
Precision Matthew’s gets great reviews, including from members of the board. From anecdotal evidence, PM backs up their three-year warranty real action when there is a claim.
Having a D1-4 chuck mount versus threaded mount? Anyone who defends a threaded mount probably never had to undo a stuck one.
VFD versus belt? I’ll give the nod to the belt, I just don’t feel a DC motor and PWM drive is the same functionality as multiple stepped pulleys. No VFD can ever increase torque by reducing speed, but any belt drive does this by changing pulleys.
Single lead screw for power feed and threading vs. two shafts? No comparison. PM for this round.
Super 7 is 245 lbs, PM is 490 lbs. Just as there’s no replacement for displacement, there’s no way to add rigidity to cast iron without adding more of it.
Super 7 is 7” x 19”, PM is 12”x28”.
Brand new, the Super 7 was probably better fit and finish them most Asian lathes. But as a hobbyist, I don’t mind spending time and sweat equity to get my Asian machinery up to an acceptable fit & finish. I’m not earning a living from my lathe, but if I was it wouldn’t be from a Super 7.
Precision Matthew’s gets great reviews, including from members of the board. From anecdotal evidence, PM backs up their three-year warranty real action when there is a claim.
Having a D1-4 chuck mount versus threaded mount? Anyone who defends a threaded mount probably never had to undo a stuck one.
VFD versus belt? I’ll give the nod to the belt, I just don’t feel a DC motor and PWM drive is the same functionality as multiple stepped pulleys. No VFD can ever increase torque by reducing speed, but any belt drive does this by changing pulleys.
Single lead screw for power feed and threading vs. two shafts? No comparison. PM for this round.
Super 7 is 245 lbs, PM is 490 lbs. Just as there’s no replacement for displacement, there’s no way to add rigidity to cast iron without adding more of it.
Super 7 is 7” x 19”, PM is 12”x28”.
Brand new, the Super 7 was probably better fit and finish them most Asian lathes. But as a hobbyist, I don’t mind spending time and sweat equity to get my Asian machinery up to an acceptable fit & finish. I’m not earning a living from my lathe, but if I was it wouldn’t be from a Super 7.
Tom Kitta
Ultra Member
Yes, but it was in the context of a MyFord. Modern (lathe) is better b/c it has better tech then a MyFord. Compared to MyFord a 10EE is very modern.
A lot of large modern lathes have VFDs now and they are not made in China but in UK or Germany. Even 10EE has different equivalent to a VFD and so does my Chipmaster. So being able to change speed at will at any time is an upgrade to gearbox - if it was not then I guess both Colchester and Monarch did not know what they are doing with their best lathes (as well as some others).
But they do not use cheap bearings at all - these bearings are easily more precise then what MyFord has. It is difficult to get imprecise bearings today unless you go very cheap. Manufacturers do what chip makers do - they produce quite good and the rejects or these not tested go to "low" bin.
This is getting to the point where someone says, what does my luxury SUV have from 1990s that is inferior to what modern SUV has - both have leather seats, heated seats, both have multi climate control, power everything, cooled seats etc. When you mention GPS == DRO.
I guess radar controlled blind spot warning == extra guards on new machines, around chuck and say sliding one for good measure.
In lathes however, in difference to the SUV, the price did drop relative to the salary of average worker for features present. I think the biggest move in manual machines lately has been in two areas:
1) Speed
2) bore size
Other then above two, we only seen addition of more guards as well as DRO.
The problem with a car analogy is, it doesn't work. If you had a 1942 car, you'd baby it, rarely drive it and performance would be horrible by today's standards. Take a '42 lathe like a 10ee and you can use it all day long and it will outperform anything else on the track, so to speak. imo, there is nothing modern about an 80 year old lathe. The idea new products are better because of technology works with lots of things but not with manual machines.
Any evidence behind that? I'd be surprised if they using high end bearings, i.e. P4's, from a reputable maker....and skateboarders aren't really using ABEC 9 bearings just because they say they are. It is true bearing manufacturing has greatly improved. I've several conversations with engineers and bearing manufacturers about this. But a class is a class i.e. ABEC 7 is ABEC 7...granted, it would have It was just harder/ore expensive to achieve in '42. .
I agree with you that the manufacture of quality of bearings has become easier because of modern technology. But a class is a class i.e. ABEC 7 is ABEC 7 yesterday or today, so the newer is not any better and high end, larger diameter, rolling elements bearings are still very expensive.
Supporting data? In my experience, the majority of the most precise lathe's made have plane bearing arrangements - i.e. watchmakers lathes that don't flicker the needle of a tenths indicator. In other words, just because its rolling elements does not mean its more precise than plane bearings. For sure plane bearing arrangements have disadvantages, but its not precision.
The 10ee arrangement was quite superior to a VFD. VFD's are a cost cutting approach and are not a performance improvement compared to a gearbox. The complex Ward leonard drive delivered constant HP (not torque!) with smooth torque over a huge speed range 700-2500 rpm. Common today on cnc machines is to use very large HP drives and a VFD so you have something left at the low end. It works ok, but it is isn't t superior performance to the old Ward Leonard drives (but is a lot less expensive to make). My 10ee unfortunately came without a drive but did have the backgear....with a 5HP motor and VFD it works well enough, but is inferior in performance to the Ward Leonard drive and will not achieve the HP over the range the original drive did.
Consider that my late 19th century Rivett 608 could maintain a 10th over 6". Nothing (manual) made today can do that (afaik or least <50,000). Because a lathe is newer does mean there is performance advantage. However, that 608 cost a man's annual salary and were only affordable to institutions. Today you can get a lathe for 1/10 or 1/20th of that. While it won't perform to the same level, it may be quite good enough for many/most/all things someone does on it. I think where the argument comes into it, is on how much of the price drop is from advantages afforded by manufacturing technology gains (cnc etc) and how much is from corner cutting.
Any evidence behind that? I'd be surprised if they using high end bearings, i.e. P4's, from a reputable maker....and skateboarders aren't really using ABEC 9 bearings just because they say they are
. It is true bearing manufacturing has greatly improved. I've several conversations with engineers and bearing manufacturers about this. But a class is a class i.e. ABEC 7 is ABEC 7...granted, it would have It was just harder/ore expensive to achieve in '42. .I agree with you that the manufacture of quality of bearings has become easier because of modern technology. But a class is a class i.e. ABEC 7 is ABEC 7 yesterday or today, so the newer is not any better and high end, larger diameter, rolling elements bearings are still very expensive.
Supporting data? In my experience, the majority of the most precise lathe's made have plane bearing arrangements - i.e. watchmakers lathes that don't flicker the needle of a tenths indicator. In other words, just because its rolling elements does not mean its more precise than plane bearings. For sure plane bearing arrangements have disadvantages, but its not precision.
The 10ee arrangement was quite superior to a VFD. VFD's are a cost cutting approach and are not a performance improvement compared to a gearbox. The complex Ward leonard drive delivered constant HP (not torque!) with smooth torque over a huge speed range 700-2500 rpm. Common today on cnc machines is to use very large HP drives and a VFD so you have something left at the low end. It works ok, but it is isn't t superior performance to the old Ward Leonard drives (but is a lot less expensive to make). My 10ee unfortunately came without a drive but did have the backgear....with a 5HP motor and VFD it works well enough, but is inferior in performance to the Ward Leonard drive and will not achieve the HP over the range the original drive did.
Consider that my late 19th century Rivett 608 could maintain a 10th over 6". Nothing (manual) made today can do that (afaik or least <50,000). Because a lathe is newer does mean there is performance advantage. However, that 608 cost a man's annual salary and were only affordable to institutions. Today you can get a lathe for 1/10 or 1/20th of that. While it won't perform to the same level, it may be quite good enough for many/most/all things someone does on it. I think where the argument comes into it, is on how much of the price drop is from advantages afforded by manufacturing technology gains (cnc etc) and how much is from corner cutting.
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We're in 100% agreement on the merits of the different attributes you listed But we may place emphasis on different syllables....sans excessive wear, (I'm usually careful to qualify old vs new remarks with that) and especially with the accessories, I'd be inclined toward the Myford. I had a cream puff one once and was very impressed with how well it was put together so disagree with Tom that it was an "economy" machine. But we're allowed to like different colour cars too
.To make sure I ruffle all feathers, I did start off by claiming I'd pass on both in favour of an SM or equivalent in good nick for a lot less money. A lathe which I think is superior to both.....but they are a little tough to get down the stairs.
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