LIkely not a deal, but drool: Monarch 10EE in Spokane, $10000 USD

[calgaryguy]

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Lots of accessories it seems. Thats $15k CDN landed (at least) tho isnt it?

 

[DavidR8]

Is the border open?
<drool/>

 

[Darren]

Thats an early "round dial" machine - early 40's

Someone did a VFD conversion...and did it poorly. Its not integrated into the machines controls. So i'm assuming that the motor generator it gone, the DC motor is gone...hopefully they kept the 2spd gearbox at least...

 

[Tom Kitta]

Not really a great machine - as per dfloen this is an old machine, war time production. Certainly worth 15k Canadian if ways are brand new and rebuild. If NOT rebuild and as is, maybe tops 5000 CAD. And that is *tops*. I.e. price is at least 3x as much as it is worth.

 

[Dabbler]

IF it was working smoothly to 4000RPM, and the ways were straight, it is in line for what I have seen in the US for 10EE machines. It would need a thorough check-out though. IF the ways are wavy or the conversion wasn't right, it'd be worth between 6-8KUSD

 

[Tom Kitta]

IF it was working smoothly to 4000RPM, and the ways were straight, it is in line for what I have seen in the US for 10EE machines. It would need a thorough check-out though. IF the ways are wavy or the conversion wasn't right, it'd be worth between 6-8KUSD

It does not run 4000 rpm, these older ones I think were limited to 2500 rpm or 3000 rpm. Similar one in AB sold last year for like under 3000 on auction in Edmonton - maybe should have gotten it. So clearly not even close to 6-8k usd. It was also WWII vintage.

About 2 years ago similar WWII one went for like 2000. In Calgary (High River).

The accessories are worth well over 1000 CAD.

My Chipmaster would do circles around that machine in accuracy department. I would not be shocked if most new Chinese machines were far more accurate. Without accuracy this is just a big heavy lathe for smaller stuff. Re-doing the ways will cost tons of money. Hence why its not worth much as is.

 

[Hacker]

I suspect it is over priced and might not be as nice as the shiny paint makes it look. They started out at 12,000 five weeks ago.

 

[Mcgyver]

its always about condition and tooling. It seems good in the tooling department, condition who knows? For otherwise the same lathe, there can be magnitudes of change in value based on condition. A reconditioned round dial (done properly) vs a worn square dial, there is no question as to which is worth more and will perform better.

The fact that round dials are older than square usually means there usually is a correlation between age and miles. Usually, but its not a law. That's the main reasons round dials usually sell for less. 3000 vs 4000 rpm? pht. Who turns at 4000 on a manual lathe? And there is no difference in the bearings if you want to over clock the round dial. The idea that a made China lathe is going to be more accurate than a round 10ee in good nick is absurd....but of course without hoping on a plane none of us can intelligently comment on the condition.

For sure he's pushing the envelope, probably a bit outside of it. but we're talking about one the nicest, highest quality lathes ever made. If it is in fantastic condition, i.e negligible wear (we don't know, but I grant unlikely for that age) it could sell in that range.

 

[chip4charlie]

Keith Rucker at VintageMachinery.org is restoring a 10EE. So far he's had the ways reground, and just sent removed the motor and DC generator:

 

[Darren]

If anyone wants to buy a 10ee, I'll sell mine for the same 11k usd, and my ways are in pretty good shape, good shape overall.

 

[Mcgyver]

me too and I'll throw in a free shop tour

 

[Tom Kitta]

its always about condition and tooling. It seems good in the tooling department, condition who knows? For otherwise the same lathe, there can be magnitudes of change in value based on condition. A reconditioned round dial (done properly) vs a worn square dial, there is no question as to which is worth more and will perform better.

The fact that round dials are older than square usually means there usually is a correlation between age and miles. Usually, but its not a law. That's the main reasons round dials usually sell for less. 3000 vs 4000 rpm? pht. Who turns at 4000 on a manual lathe? And there is no difference in the bearings if you want to over clock the round dial. The idea that a made China lathe is going to be more accurate than a round 10ee in good nick is absurd....but of course without hoping on a plane none of us can intelligently comment on the condition.

For sure he's pushing the envelope, probably a bit outside of it. but we're talking about one the nicest, highest quality lathes ever made. If it is in fantastic condition, i.e negligible wear (we don't know, but I grant unlikely for that age) it could sell in that range.

I bet it was ridden hard and put away wet. Its a war time machine. Dreams of it somehow not being used in WWII are... well.. dreams. Hence forth I stand by my Chinese lathe comparison. Lathe was precise and great in 1942, but its 2022. Now it is a rebuild candidate. As is I doubt it can produce a good part other then in between centers with a taper set for every part to offset massive bed wear.

Dabbler probably remembers how much rebuild costs, re-grinding the bed, re-doing everything for new bed etc. I think it was well over 20k.

For an imprecise small lathe the cost of 10k is way too much. It is also taking up a lot of space, it also cannot be placed into a basement (easily) etc.

 

[Tom Kitta]

Keith Rucker at VintageMachinery.org is restoring a 10EE. So far he's had the ways reground, and just sent removed the motor and DC generator:

And this is more or less what the new owner of the 10EE faces in order to restore his to "good working order". 10EE with little or no wear (rebuild) is certainly worth what they ask for - but not the one that has WWII wear on it.

 

[Darren]

I bet it was ridden hard and put away wet. Its a war time machine. Dreams of it somehow not being used in WWII are... well.. dreams. Hence forth I stand by my Chinese lathe comparison. Lathe was precise and great in 1942, but its 2022. Now it is a rebuild candidate. As is I doubt it can produce a good part other then in between centers with a taper set for every part to offset massive bed wear.

Dabbler probably remembers how much rebuild costs, re-grinding the bed, re-doing everything for new bed etc. I think it was well over 20k.

For an imprecise small lathe the cost of 10k is way too much. It is also taking up a lot of space, it also cannot be placed into a basement (easily) etc.

That machine was definitely used during the war, so i'm sure it has some wear. The good thing is that these machines have a pretty cool auto oiler system that pumps whenever the carriage is moved, so everything is bathed in oil constantly. Forgetting to oil the bed is not an issue. The saddle is massive, spreading out the load and at the same time protecting the ways. So maybe its not so bad as far as wear goes. On the one I just bought, it shows very little wear, probably not enough to affect accuracy. I'd take a bet on it being more accurate than a new chinese machine.

You'd have to be insane to move a 10ee down any type of stairs. I bet the bare base casting weighs 1000lb.

 

[Mcgyver]

I bet it was ridden hard and put away wet. Its a war time machine.

but you don't know. That's the point.

Lathes, especially of that caliber, got sold to R&D facilities, institutions, labs etc at that time as well as any other time. Furthermore, they only really wear badly when lubrication is missed.

You are using comparable sales to make statements but you really have no idea how comparable they are if you haven't inspected each machine. Two examples of the same machined could easily sell for a 5x price differential and each deal be fair to the buyer and seller. Would you argue that? Then how could make a judgement on value with inspecting each?

What you are referring as a rebuild is called reconditioning and I know all about it. I do it. It could be $20k if you paid someone. There are also lots of lathes reconditioned for less, often by skilled men for their own use. 1500 for a bed regrind and sweat equity 10 years ago might easily equate to 10k price today. Neither of us know, which is the point, so niether of us are in a position to make statements as to what its really worth.

For an imprecise small lathe

How do you know its an imprecise lathe? Are you saying ones in prefect condition never come up for sale? There are no factory rebuilds out there? No reconditioned ones or lightly used ones? Have you ever used one? I've had two '40's 10ee, even with some wear they are incredibly accurate machines.

 

[Tom Kitta]

That machine was definitely used during the war, so i'm sure it has some wear. The good thing is that these machines have a pretty cool auto oiler system that pumps whenever the carriage is moved, so everything is bathed in oil constantly. Forgetting to oil the bed is not an issue. The saddle is massive, spreading out the load and at the same time protecting the ways. So maybe its not so bad as far as wear goes. On the one I just bought, it shows very little wear, probably not enough to affect accuracy. I'd take a bet on it being more accurate than a new chinese machine.

You'd have to be insane to move a 10ee down any type of stairs. I bet the bare base casting weighs 1000lb.

Well, I seen 2 old 10EEs for sale in AB. One I inspected and it did have noticeable wear. I am unsure when the auto oiler was implemented. Remember this is the old school 10EE, not more "new" 1960s model.

I did a comparison of a brand new Chinese drill chuck and used, but looking perfectly good jacobs. I checked tir of a piece of 1/2 ground stock. The Chinese drill chuck had a runout of 1.5 thou. Used jacobs had runout of 5 thou. So don't under estimate wear.

 

[Mcgyver]

Well, I seen 2 old 10EEs for sale in AB. One I inspected and it did have noticeable wear. I am unsure when the auto oiler was implemented. Remember this is the old school 10EE, not more "new" 1960s model.

I dont think you can go from one anecdote to universal statements. That you saw a worn one doesn;t mean the next one will be. I agree with you if we play the probabilities it probably has wear as will the next one. Probably. But at the same, it could be the perfect one - less likely but still there are lots of reasonable ways it could be so, in which case 10k isn't outlandish.

The auto oiler the bed and cross slide was in place from the get go, at least on my '42 its there

Remember this is the old school 10EE, not more "new" 1960s model.

what difference would that make? Newer makes little difference other than the speed you mentioned which imo is a bit moot. for all intents, they are the same lathe...and condition will drive value (I do grant you newer often means better condition as a result of less use, but not always). you might even go the other way, the MG drive is fairly bullet proof compared to the later somewhat finicky tube drives. Still, I agree square dials do sell for more on average but not always as its mostly condition dependent.

I don't thing we're disagreeing that much, I'm just objecting to some of the generalizations.

 

[kevin.decelles]

Gentlemen, great discussion! Reading this has been the best part of my day so far!

I agree and disagree with both of you on various statements (my comments won't lead to any positive outcome ) but respect the hell out of both of you for airing your opinions constructively.

Worn/not-worn, 4000rpm, 2000 rpm, I'd put it in my garage if I had room/$$$! I just like old things

 

[Tom Kitta]

I dont think you can go from one anecdote to universal statements. That you saw a worn one doesn;t mean the next one will be. I agree with you if we play the probabilities it probably has wear as will the next one. Probably. But at the same, it could be the perfect one - less likely but still there are lots of reasonable ways it could be so, in which case 10k isn't outlandish.

The auto oiler the bed and cross slide was in place from the get go, at least on my '42 its there



what difference would that make? Newer makes little difference other than the speed you mentioned which imo is a bit moot. for all intents, they are the same lathe...and condition will drive value (I do grant you newer often means better condition as a result of less use, but not always). you might even go the other way, the MG drive is fairly bullet proof compared to the later somewhat finicky tube drives. Still, I agree square dials do sell for more on average but not always as its mostly condition dependent.

I don't thing we're disagreeing that much, I'm just objecting to some of the generalizations.

Lets put it this way, if it was a deal it would be sold already, especially in the US. It has been on the market for well over a month now, maybe 2. This lathe is very, very well known. I slightly under priced by MyFord and it sold within 3 days. Of course we will not know for sure unless someone goes to inspect this but I highly doubt its in mint condition.

I am 99% sure dfloen 10EE is in far better condition for same $.

Looking at eBay - https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr..._sacat=0&_oaa=1&_dcat=258076&rt=nc&_udlo=3000 we see the price of 11k is way over the top. You can get 1992 model for at most 20k, probably would take 15k offer.

 

[Dabbler]

The guy in Alberta here grinds lathe ways by the foot if you send him just the lathe bed. Fir a 60" lathe is is about 4000$ (3 years ago) and for a 30" bed it was just over 2000$ - I think 2400$. A 10EE would com in between these, and so say 3000$.

If you send him a lathe (for him to disassemble and rebuild) a 10EE is about 25K$ for everything, including scraping the tercite. This does not include replacing worn parts,which are reasonably priced BTW. (well for a OEM part anyway)