King 1440 lathe

[Dhorne]

Does antone own a king 1440. I am looking for the diameter of the tailstock quill.
I have a standard modern 1334 that the morse taper is a bit rough.
I think the 1440 king has the same OD .
The king quill is only $229 where the standard modern$ 1000.00.

Any help would be appreciated.

Dhorne

 

[YYCHM]

Where are you and what taper does it have? A member might have a reamer they could lend you.

 

[Dhorne]

Hello, thanks for the reply. I do have a reamer but the taper is galled pretty good.. The lathe came from a trades school.
I found the specs for the precision mathews 1440 and it is 1.575 (40 mm) diameter but they will not sell me one because i dont have one of their lathes.
Then i found the king and it appears to be 1.575 also but i would like to confirm .
i am in nova scotia and looks as though the king option may be viable. $229.00.

 

[YYCHM]

A member here made me a new quill (Thanks @Brent H ) for my 9" Utilathe. What dimensions are we looking at here?

 

[kevin.decelles]

I have a 1440 (c0636a) from modern tool that is identical to one of the pm 1440s. I’ll measure the quill tonight and let you know

That might give you another option

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[kevin.decelles]

42mm on mine


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[DPittman]

I found the specs for the precision mathews 1440 and it is 1.575 (40 mm) diameter but they will not sell me one because i dont have one of their lathes.

Good lord that's pretty bad in my opinion! I bought some small lathe parts through them before even though I don't have one of their branded lathes. I guess things are changing for the bad.

 

[Dabbler]

@DPittman I have talked to them a few times on the other forum.... They used to do it, but there was a time where people abused their system and claiming to be PM owners when they weren't. As usual, bad eggs spoil things for everybody.

 

[John Conroy]

Matt doesn't want his business to become a parts depot for the many fly by night operators who import Asian machines but give no parts support. He has gone the extra miles to support his customers with a good inventory of parts. He is sure those parts fit his machines but has no idea if they fit other brands and doesn't want to waste time measuring and fiddling around to sell a part that may not fit. It's a hard policy but I can't say I disagree with his thinking.

 

[Tom Kitta]

Just go with Grizzly - they have a lot of parts in stock and treat it as any other item you can purchase. They do not care if it is for their Asian import or not. Alternatively make your own. If you are "sneaky" you can just re-use something with correct taper already made for you - i.e. you can get a bigger part and turn it down or make a sleeve for a smaller part. Or just cut MT3 (or MT4) from a raw stock.

 

[RobinHood]

I like what Tom said about machining a new quill.

But first I would try this: Turn off 20-50 thou from the front and redo the MT3 from there. See if it cleans up. Take more off if it did not. Your quill will be a bit shorter, but functional again.

If that did not work, make a whole new one.

 

[Dabbler]

Even the worst MT3 can be cleaned up with a roughing reamer, but you have to use a finish reamer after....

 

[Dirt Machinist]

Yes a "soft" tail stock taper can be cleaned up using reamers. With a Standard Modern lathe, there's a good chance it has a hardened and ground taper. If so it will pretty much destroy any HSS reamer instantly. But I don't know for sure they are in fact hardened. It's still not the best method even when it can be done because there's no guarantee the reamer will cut a true concentric taper directly in line with the head stocks C/L. Any damage has a habit of pushing the reamer off to the side with the least damage and the actual taper is then tilted a bit from the lathes C/L axis.

There is still another option not yet mentioned though. Hard Chroming and regrinding. That hard chrome isn't anything like you see on automotive parts. It's a process they use for repairing from small to the largest hydraulic cylinders in the world. But it's also used for many other items. I believe it allows up to a .030" deep coating, but any damage over about .010" it's generally recommended to weld, rough grind, chrome plate over size and then grind back to the correct dimension. Afaik the good machine tool rebuild shops will have the capability to do this type of work. I've run these hard chromed and repaired cylinders on cats up to D 11's, loaders up to 992's and on a Hitachi 5500. A lathe tail stock would be mild compared to that type of service. These types of repairs are pretty much invisible when there properly done. H & W Machine Repair, https://www.machinerypartsdepot.com/ might? be one who could do it. If not I'm sure they would know other businesses who could.

Even if the tail stock quill from another lathe did fit exactly, your still dealing with what thread pitch and diameter it's feed screw nut is and the quills over all length. If it were me I'd take the best detail pictures I could of just how bad the damage is and start a Google search for machine tool rebuilding company's. Likely one that specialize in servicing and rebuilding machine tool spindles could also do this. I know Suburban Tools in the U.S. uses this company. http://precisionspindleinc.com/ The actual hard chroming is the easy part, getting a properly reground taper is the toughest part of the job and that takes someone who really knows what there doing.

 

[Dabbler]

@Dirt Machinist I really appreciate your experience with Hydraulic cylinders, and the hard chroming. I have used hard chroming once to repair a part [at] Jager Industries, it was quite expensive, and would not be appropriate for a Morse taper. If you hard chromed it, you would completely ruin it. It would never hold a MT [edit...."taper] ever again properly.

With a Standard Modern lathe, there's a good chance it has a hardened and ground taper

No Morse taper is hardened. Not on a Harding, Standard Modern, LeBlond or any other lathe. If it were hard, it wouldn't hold, not under the pressures of drilling, for instance. Unless you think Rc40 is hard - and that won't hurt a good HSS reamer at all.

There is series of techniques for concentrically reaming a tailstock, you don't just shove a reamer into the tailstock and have at it. The burrs in the tailstock don't usually interfere with the process, but they are easily avoided if there's a big one.

It would be silly to reproduce Connely's writings on this or try to describe in short what it takes months to learn as a millwright. Suffice it to say that the burrs on a tailstock in no way impede the correct reaming of the tailstock, if approached correctly. In short, if it is really bad you have to start with a roughing reamer, followed by a finishing reamer. And it does not 'push' the reamer out of true.

For your information, Precision Spindle will hard chrome the outside of a spindle, not the Morse taper,

 

[Brent H]

@Dhorne : for what it is worth I have had great success making a new one for my lathe as well as setting up and line boring my tailstock to remove the damage from many years of high school abuse. Many folks get a bit too anal retentive about "accuracy" and how things need to be less than tenths or 0.001 millimeters....I get that, but for the "practical part" you can adjust your tailstock side to side and you can typically shim it up or scrape it down yo get things as "accurate" as possible.

The Standard Modern will be most likely cast iron and may or may not be chromed on the outside - I doubt it though. I replaced my original beat up one with a 4140 piece of stock and machined that to dimensions, threaded etc, bored the taper and then finish reamed it to over 80% contact on a ground MT2 taper.

That tailstock I used in my lathe and made @YYCHM one for his lathe just going from his precision dimensions, mailed it to him and I gather it fit and works fine...

Amazon has a set of MT3 reamers (roughing and a finishing) for like $50......could be all that you need to do is clean things up and Viola!! back in business!

 

[Dirt Machinist]

Sorry but I have to disagree, the taper would hold after chroming. That's a factor of the surface finish the correct grindstone leaves. As I said they hold partly due to a wedging action, but mostly due to the friction between the two closely fitting surfaces and not how hard the surface is. If a hard surface wouldn't hold a MT shank then hardened and ground MT reducer sleeves wouldn't be available. Where a MT won't hold without a draw bar is in any situation where there's side loads being created. But that's a factor of an oscillating load on the taper that helps to loosen it. With direct in line drilling pressures keeping the taper fully seated in a drill press or tail stock quill of course works just fine unless the MT shanked drill catches as it exits the work piece and that pulls the drill forward. But George Thomas in one of his books specifically mentions a warning about not trying to ream hardened lathe quills, so I do know there made. With just a quick Google check post no. 7 in this thread https://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/forum/general/47844-tailstock-quill-hardness mentions a file won't touch the quill on his 16" Grizzly. And Kingston mentions there quills are hardened and ground on there 22" swing lathes. Even Eisen specifies the tail stock quills are hardened and ground on there 1236 lathes. But as I said I just don't know if the smaller SM are, but it's an easy enough check. And as you said there various levels of hardness. And while they say the quills are hardened and ground they don't specify the female MT 's are. But it's pretty apparent some TS quills are too hard for a HSS reamer. I'm also not sure what you meant by tang, most seem to think that tang will twist off if it's used to prevent a large diameter drill from rotating within the MT bore. Afaik that tang is added simply as a bearing surface for a wedge to eject the tool from any quill that doesn't have a built in ejection pin. There are some lathes built with internal slots to take that tang, but the tools MT shank is designed to take the loads and prevent the tool from spinning.

I'm also familiar with the Connelly book. But I'm also familiar with chamber reaming rifle barrels and the difficulty of keeping much shorter and stiffer reamers truly in line with the bore even when using piloted chambering reamers. It's for these exact problems floating reamer holders were invented. If that SM quill isn't hardened then I'd only try cleaning it up very gently by hand turning the reamer because there's no way to know for sure how well aligned the OP's head and tail stock are. And I don't recall any warnings by anyone to him yet about being very careful about how much is being removed with a reamer. Because of that long slow taper what's being removed isn't linear to how much further the tool shanks will move inwards. It's not hard to go too far to where the tool shanks tang end hits the tip of the ejector before the tool fully seats in the MT. Do that and you will need a new quill. If my math is close to correct, reaming .005" from that female taper results in the tool shank moving inwards by almost .125"

Pete

 

[Brent H]

@Dhorne: how old is your Standard Modern 1334? From the drawings it looks like the tailstock would be 1-9/16 (1.5625") with a #3MT and a 9/16 -8 LH ACME feed screw




Maybe your lathe is a newer edition?

 

[YotaBota]

For reference, the quill on my 1120 is 1.574 OD measured with calipers, with a #3MT and a 9/16-8 LH ACME feed screw.
Dhorne - does your quill have the tang slot? If it does you could ream as required and then if needed bore the tang slot out to make room for the taper to seat deeper, then use tangless tapers. Does this make sense?

 

[Dabbler]

@Dirt Machinist I apologize for confusing you with the word tang, I have changed it in the above post.

How many MT3 tapers have you reamed?

 

[Dirt Machinist]

Only one MT 1, one MT 2 and two MT 3's