Flamal 29

[That-Guy]

Has anyone ever used Flamal 29, or Linde(formerly known as Praxair) equivalent Starflame? Their literature says that they are better in everyway to acetylene, but of course I am a little bit skeptical... After I got my last invoice from Linde, I am forced to move to purchased bottles from a local-ish weld supplier, at the same time, I was also wondering about a cheaper alternative to acetylene. I know that propane works well, but I'm a curious one.

 

[Ironman]

Propane works well, there is thread about it on here.

 

[phaxtris]

is that just a trade name for mapp gas?

 

[Dabbler]

Well, 'acutal' mapp gas isn't sold any more, now they have a substitute that is more stable, but puts out a lot less heat, but still suitable for plumbing...

 

[phaxtris]

Ya I don't know, ive never heard of those gases before, maybe then its the trade name for the substitute of mapp gas ?

EDIT; now that im at home i did some quick googling, seems like those are trade names for propylene, here is the chart i came up with for temperatures and fuel2 ratio

Acetylene	3,160	1.2:1
Propane	2,828	4.3:1
MAPP	2,976	3.3:1
Propylene	2,896	3.7:1

propylene over propane, i think i would go with propane, pretty similar performance, surely much cheaper, and definitely easier to get (think bbq tank), the slightly higher oxygen use would no doubt be offset by the low low price of propane and accessibility

 

[Jswain]

Best thing about propane is then you always have a spare for the BBQ or vice versa.

 

[That-Guy]

Best thing about propane is then you always have a spare for the BBQ or vice versa.

Not when you use charcoal! hahaha!

now that im at home i did some quick googling, seems like those are trade names for propylene, here is the chart i came up with for temperatures and fuel2 ratio

thank you for putting this chart together! I didn't realize the O2 requirement! I went and dealt with my oxy and acetylene tanks last night, walked out 1000$ poorer for that.... I asked about the Flamal, and was basically told its a production gas, and that propane is the best alternative to acetylene, or go with an injector torch and use low pressure natural gas. Ether way, can't weld with anything but acetylene.

For the record. Weld-Tec in Hamilton will sell (outright), 85CF O2 and 75CF Ace, the price for the bottles is 375$ for the ace and 305$ for the ace. This does not include first fill.... That was another 119$ and 47$ respectivly. shocked me, but with spring coming and Linde's bottle rate increse I was stuck, I'm very much DONE with bottle leases.
Lock-8 welding in Port Colborne and Hamilton, sells the same size bottle for 350 each, full... problem with them is that they sorce their product Yankee side and are often out of stock with long leed time, and I'm not too sure if they have a reduced rate for just a bottle swap.

 

[Ironman]

Ya I don't know, ive never heard of those gases before, maybe then its the trade name for the substitute of mapp gas ?

EDIT; now that im at home i did some quick googling, seems like those are trade names for propylene, here is the chart i came up with for temperatures and fuel2 ratio

Acetylene	3,160	1.2:1
Propane	2,828	4.3:1
MAPP	2,976	3.3:1
Propylene	2,896	3.7:1

propylene over propane, i think i would go with propane, pretty similar performance, surely much cheaper, and definitely easier to get (think bbq tank), the slightly higher oxygen use would no doubt be offset by the low low price of propane and accessibility

Thanks, I find this interesting. A lot of Americans of other forums I am on recommend polyproplene. I have never seen it available here in Canada. It is a bit hotter than pane, and all we seem to have is Mapp.

 

[phaxtris]

Yea it's always a big hit to buy them (bottles), but it well worth it in the long run.

I also got tired of leasing, that random 100$+ bill That would show up every few months (my leases all came due at different times) plus actually paying more for gas, and some times paying more in a year for lease fees than gas on a bottle. It did take me over a year to slowly replace everything with owned bottles, but worth it for sure.

I never did buy an actylene tank, it's just to difficult to get an owned cylinder of decent size filled around here.

If you keep your eye out you can often find used bottles that aren't lease bottles for a fraction of the price, especially if they are out of date. I have some used ones in my collection, they work just the same, the paint just isn't as pretty

Sorry I didn't make the chart, I see how I wrote that may seem like it, that's a convenient chart that came up/came across on my Google search

 

[Susquatch]

and all we seem to have is Mapp.

Depends where you look, but it seems real Mapp died with the refinery it was produced at.

Again, some sources say that the new mapp isn't mapp. It's any number of other things sold under the old name. Propylene has been tagged as one possible ingredient.

 

[Ironman]

Depends where you look, but it seems real Mapp died with the refinery it was produced at.

Again, some sources say that the new mapp isn't mapp. It's any number of other things sold under the old name. Propylene has been tagged as one possible ingredient.

I suspect you have it right, It's like gasoline, it is a mixture of food, water and some gas, designed to degrade and self destruct in 3 months. The only real gas that exists now is the gasoline that comes up with natural gas. We call it condensate. I have some and use it for chainsaws because it does not degrade and rot your O rings and seals, and plug carburetor jets and keeps for a long time, maybe forever.

 

[Susquatch]

I suspect you have it right, It's like gasoline, it is a mixture of food, water and some gas, designed to degrade and self destruct in 3 months. The only real gas that exists now is the gasoline that comes up with natural gas. We call it condensate. I have some and use it for chainsaws because it does not degrade and rot your O rings and seals, and plug carburetor jets and keeps for a long time, maybe forever.

Ya, that stuff the gov't makes them put in gasoline is God awful. But the better fuel suppliers (esso, shell, sunoco, petro canada) all put their own relatively good stuff in there too. The discount suppliers have been caught putting water in there. My family and I only use the good suppliers. I really don't care how much cheaper the other stuff is. I don't want any in my engine.

If you can find it in your area, look for "Top Tier" certified gasoline. It used to be called Automakers Choice.

 

[PeterT]

The only real gas that exists now is the gasoline that comes up with natural gas. We call it condensate.

I suspect you might be referring to what was also called 'drip gas' back in the day? I come across this often in historical engines, sometimes they use the words kind of interchangeably. Some farm/autos used it directly. Some of the race/aircraft engines used some pretty lethal blends with added alcohols & benzene. Anyways, saying 'condensate' is kind of like like saying 'oil' - the chemical properties can vary quite a bit depending on reservoir, processing & other factors. The rough definition is low density hydrocarbon liquid 50-70 API range (vs light oil at 37-42 API although that varies by region & market). A big usage these days is for pipeline blend, processing & more recently co-injection with steam for thermal recovery as a form of solvent to reduce water/emissions.

Natural-gas condensate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

What Exactly is Condensate and Why is its Export Prohibited? | Enverus

What Exactly is Condensate in Oil & Gas? Read our blog to learn more.

www.enverus.com

 

[mbond]

Ya, that stuff the gov't makes them put in gasoline is God awful. But the better fuel suppliers (esso, shell, sunoco, petro canada) all put their own relatively good stuff in there too. The discount suppliers have been caught putting water in there. My family and I only use the good suppliers. I really don't care how much cheaper the other stuff is. I don't want any in my engine.

If you can find it in your area, look for "Top Tier" certified gasoline. It used to be called Automakers Choice.

Adding water, sand etc. to fuel is obviously bad, but all too common

But the problem of additives was one I looked at in detail about 20 years ago. At that time, the big one was Ethanol from corn, but there were a number of others. Probably there is other newer stuff. we were specifically looking at pitting issues in aluminum block engines, but o ring and other seal degradations and failures were a common problem.

 

[phaxtris]

Bloody ethanol is mandated in all pump gas now , even premium, they snuck that one in.

 

[Susquatch]

But the problem of additives was one I looked at in detail about 20 years ago. At that time, the big one was Ethanol from corn, but there were a number of others. Probably there is other newer stuff. we were specifically looking at pitting issues in aluminum block engines, but o ring and other seal degradations and failures were a common problem.

What in the world caused you to be doing that? The North American industry had long since worked out all those problems with the average engine fuel system able to tolerate E85 (85% ethanol) but only a few were actually rated for it. I'm curious about what you were up to.....

FWIW, I don't call Ethanol an "Additive". It certainly is, but that is giving it too much credit. Additives are generally good things. Ethanol is just bad. I prefer to call it a dilutant..... It has worse names too..... LOL!

@phaxtris - didn't know they snuck that into premium fuel now too. Must have done that sometime in the last 15 years since I retired. Slime balls.

 

[phaxtris]

@Susquatch, it's been a year, maybe two now government mandated ethanol in all auto fuel, I know before then it was real hard to find ethanol free stuff....now it's impossible, talk about short sighted virtue signalling.

They must think the only thing that burns pump gas are automobiles...not to many chainsaws/lawnmowers/snowmobiles/pleasure boats in Ottawa I guess

 

[That-Guy]

@Susquatch, it's been a year, maybe two now government mandated ethanol in all auto fuel, I know before then it was real hard to find ethanol free stuff....now it's impossible, talk about short sighted virtue signalling.

They must think the only thing that burns pump gas are automobiles...not to many chainsaws/lawnmowers/snowmobiles/pleasure boats in Ottawa I guess

One of the biggest losers in this whole debacle is general aviation. Most GA aircraft, Think Cessna, Piper and things like that we meant to run on something called 80/87. This was a low octane leaded fuel, remember that most small aviation engines used in production aircraft have their design roots firmly in the 1930's. Now all that is available for aviation is 100LL (stands for low lead, which is a misnomer... it has 4-6 time the amount of lead in it as compared to 80/87 or old time pump fuels) What most of us did was mix the 100LL with ethanol free pump gas to reduce the lead fouling in the plugs and generally have a cleaner burn. Some engines this is a non issue, but some of them are brutal. Now were stuck.
Because alcohol is hydroscopic it likes to pull moisture from the surrounding atmosphere, and its often quite humid in this part of the land. The second issue is that it can hold that water in suspension so that when you do your preflight and check the low point drains for water, it will show none. Then around the time your in a critical flight phase (just after the wheels leave the ground to around 200 feet for arguments sake) the engine gets a slug of water and poof. Your gonna have a bad time. Third issue is the staling of the fuel. 100LL lasts for years and it is lowers in highly volitile organincs and was formulated to be stored. Premuim before ethenol was always good for 12 months. Now 3.....maybe. Just my 2 cents.

This one got a little strayed away from Flamal ! lol Good info and a good vent for all.

 

[phaxtris]

@That-Guy yea and dont also forget most of those stc's for mogas are only for non-ethanol fuel....so even if a guy can and wants to run pump gas, legally you cant

although i believe the 912's are rated for ethanol fuel, dont quote me on that though

 

[mbond]

What in the world caused you to be doing that? The North American industry had long since worked out all those problems with the average engine fuel system able to tolerate E85 (85% ethanol) but only a few were actually rated for it. I'm curious about what you were up to.....

FWIW, I don't call Ethanol an "Additive". It certainly is, but that is giving it too much credit. Additives are generally good things. Ethanol is just bad. I prefer to call it a dilutant..... It has worse names too..... LOL!

@phaxtris - didn't know they snuck that into premium fuel now too. Must have done that sometime in the last 15 years since I retired. Slime balls.

I was in school at the time, and it was something that one of the professors was interested in