Product Amazon sells me a used saw blade!!

[Mcgyver]

Semi OT because its woodworking, but still a shop tool and its not a bad reminded of what you dealing with the Amazon....

Bought a bunch of good quality saw blades. I need to bore them out so wanted to stock up and do bunch at when I had setup ready.




I'll all pumped to get them bored out and use them....but the package on the left looks a little ratty. And the one on the right arrived with no packaged. In both cases the vendor, or least sold and fulfilled by, is amazon.ca.






So I take a closer look..... that blade is used!!






No doubt about it, they didn't even wash the sawdust off!









It and the unpackaged one are going back, which fortunately is fairly easy with them now (they now use canada post again). But still, hassle, waste of time, project on hold, now I have to make sure they refund etc mean its a PITA

I ways check price because sometimes theirs are predatory, but this is the first time that I've recieved a used item sold as new. At least the first time I've noticed. Sometimes I'll buy stuff when I think of it and not use for weeks or months.....can't do that anymore as apparently you cannot trust what you get from amazon even when they are the vendor. Inspect inspect inspect!

 

[gerritv]

"tested for applicability for your use" ?
OTOH I have never bought a used item from AliExpress

 

[PeterT]

I would bet an unscrupulous buyer. He bought the blade, did his project over the weekend, clicked 'wrong size', packaged it up & returned for refund. AmazonLand has no time to inspect. I think I know the guys brother, he would brag about returning tools (including a compressor & nailer) because they had a gracious return policy. But in the end we all pay. Some sellers will (should) categorize as 'potentially used' & apply a healthy discount. Well at least it wasn't nicely cleaned but buggered carbide teeth or something to cause you worse problems than refund.

 

[Susquatch]

Sometimes I'll buy stuff when I think of it and not use for weeks or months.....

Thank you for that warning. I do that a lot. It's a practice I will change immediately!

 

[Susquatch]

I would bet an unscrupulous buyer. He bought the blade, did his project over the weekend, clicked 'wrong size', packaged it up & returned for refund. AmazonLand has no time to inspect. I think I know the guys brother, he would brag about returning tools (including a compressor & nailer) because they had a gracious return policy. But in the end we all pay. Some sellers will (should) categorize as 'potentially used' & apply a healthy discount. Well at least it wasn't nicely cleaned but buggered carbide teeth or something to cause you worse problems than refund.

Could also be an unscrupulous Amazon vendor. Something gets returned, they box it back up and supply it back to Amazon who sells it to @Mcgyver and us.

 

[JustaDB]

AmazonLand has no time to inspect.

Couple 3 years back now, I ordered a complete set (1/4", 3/8" & 1/2") of SAE & metric socket holders in an effort to organize my tool box. What arrived was not only used (and broken) but was incomplete and a different brand than I ordered. I think some anal orifice ordered a new set, returned his old ones, got credit for the return & Amazon then shipped the used, broken, incomplete set out to the next guy who ordered them-Me!

They got returned, toot sweet.

 

[Mcgyver]

Could also be an unscrupulous Amazon vendor. Something gets returned, they box it back up and supply it back to Amazon who sells it to @Mcgyver and us.

it says "sold by Amazon, shipped by Amazon", not sure if that means they are vendor. Sometimes it says fulfilled by Amazon which is when I assume its a 3rd party vendor.

In any event, i've read that that vast majority of returns get shrink wrapped on a skid and auctioned in bulk. Perhaps this is the new way - cursory glance then back into inventory. I can see an unsavory third party selling used as new, but it surprises me Amazon is.

Thank you for that warning. I do that a lot. It's a practice I will change immediately!

Yeah, you go past that return date and it doesn't matter how wrong it is, you're stuck with it. Their way or the highway. Part of me has wanted to challenge that in small claims court as I think they'd lose (i.e. statute of limitations is two years, and if there is say misrepresentation in their ad which happened to me, I think they'd lose) but then the thought vanish as I think of how much I already have on the go.

 

[Susquatch]

it says "sold by Amazon, shipped by Amazon", not sure if that means they are vendor.

OK, I'll try again. With very few exceptions, Amazon doesn't make anything. They just sell stuff that other manufacturers make. So if they sell a saw blade supplied by saws unlimited and ship from their stock at the Amazon warehouse, then it will get marked as sold by Amazon shipped by Amazon. But it gets to their warehouse direct from saws unlimited and as such, saws unlimited could ship Amazon a bunch of used stuff. Amazon would never know if they don't open the box and as far as I know they never do.

I only raise this possibility because I bet Amazon would be keenly interested in ripping their saw blade supplier a new poop-shoot for making Amazon look like the bad guy.

Sic em Gyver!

Unless Amazon has changed, I understand they sell all returns at auction. They don't resell used or even wrong item stuff. Their reputation is sorta sacred to them.

 

[Mcgyver]

OK, I'll try again. With very few exceptions, Amazon doesn't make anything.

I'm surprised you'd think, I'd think they did. However "sold by Amazon afaik suggests they are the vendor, vs a third party seller else it typically names the third party and says fulfilled by amazon (if it was , the exception being drop shipping)..... so I'm guessing they are the ones who have accepted damaged/used blades back into inventory. Can't be sure as their returns process is fairly shrouded, however for I think we can be sure Freud didn't ship them to amazon like this.

Just to carry on the saga..... I returned the two blades and re ordered. One arrived in OEM packaging and was good, the second arrived in bubble wrap. I carefully look at each tooth and discovered two with big chips out of them. Dang! back it goes and I reorder. Tonight the third attempt arrives, same thing. Its like the blades were loosly stacked up, lots of scratches on the blade and chipped edges.

 

[Susquatch]

I'm surprised you'd think, I'd think they did.

I was surprised you'd think they did.

I confess I wrote that with a little tongue in cheek. Mostly I was trying to smoke out what it was that we were disconnecting over cuz it wasn't obvious. I was hoping you would read my interpretation of your point and go - "that's not what I meant, but I see how you would think that". Then I'd be the one saying "I'm surprised you'd think, I'd think that." LOL!

However "sold by Amazon afaik suggests they are the vendor, vs a third party seller else it typically names the third party and says fulfilled by amazon (if it was , the exception being drop shipping).....

We agree on that. That is my understanding too.

so I'm guessing they are the ones who have accepted damaged/used blades back into inventory.

I dunno about that. It's indeed possible but I'm inclined to think they DON'T put things back into inventory unless it is in unopened original box.

Can't be sure as their returns process is fairly shrouded, however for I think we can be sure Freud didn't ship them to amazon like this.

So that's really where we differ. I was more inclined to think Freud is the bad actor (or Freud's representatives) than amazon.

To be fair, I'm surprised either one would do that, and we only differ on which one we think is most likely.

Just to carry on the saga..... I returned the two blades and re ordered. One arrived in OEM packaging and was good, the second arrived in bubble wrap. I carefully look at each tooth and discovered two with big chips out of them. Dang! back it goes and I reorder. Tonight the third attempt arrives, same thing. Its like the blades were loosly stacked up, lots of scratches on the blade and chipped edges.

You gotta be kidding!

The bubble wrap tends to support your version of which is more likely.

If it was me, I'd be asking their customer service folks to elevate my claim to a higher level of management in the interest of improving Amazon's processes. Then again, I doubt any good would actually come of that approach.

 

[Former Member]

I know that vendors sell returned or non-conforming parts/equipment on Amazon (one of which we praise), most of the time its listed (though not always clearly) that this is the case.

I might suggest that they are indirectly described as such somewhere in the listing.

I buy my blades here, all are custom orders cheaper and great quality than KBC Tools.

Contact Us - Industrial Bandsaw Services

Have a question about one of our products? Click on this link to get in touch with us.

industrialbandsaw.ca

 

[Mcgyver]

If it was me, I'd be asking their customer service folks to elevate my claim to a higher level of management in the interest of improving Amazon's processes. Then again, I doubt any good would actually come of that approach.

I heard they removed that button from the console, customer service is being renamed the Platitude Dept. I'm hear customer service has fewer and fewer options, they'll hear you out and say how sorry they are you aren't happy but can do little. It all lives and dies on the return date, send it back or live with it.

No way Frued is trying to pull a scam shipping used blades or unpackaged blades, its their brand and it just wouldn't be part of the their supply chain. How would Freud even get used or unpackaged blades? They have a factory with new blister packages blades coming out of it, they're not trying sneak used ones in and hope no one notices.

If you get into Amazons fulfillment services and read some of how to's for vendors, apparently they offer third party sellers the option of returning an item to inventory if it meets Amazon's standards , after Amazon inspects it. They also offer to return the item to the vendor. There are going to be fees with this and Amazon does liquidate warehouses full of skids of returned stuff so perhaps few sellers opt for it....point being they have a return to inventory path for returns.

The part I don't understand is every other major retain chain business I've had any involvement with or insight into simply back charges returns to the manufacturer. The manufacturing costs are a tiny fraction of the sale price, the goods get scrapped and life goes on. With these freaking saw blades, I don't understand why it wouldn't be same and who the bad actor is. Mostly just curiosity at how things work..... something people like us are afflicted with!

Anyway, ordered a 4th blade, this time picked a different sku. Same size and teeth count, but a bit more money.... for their "industrial" line instead of diablo. The difference is a thicker piece of carbide so you can get more sharpenings out of it

Hopefully that's the end of it!

 

[Susquatch]

I heard they removed that button from the console, customer service is being renamed the Platitude Dept. I'm hear customer service has fewer and fewer options, they'll hear you out and say how sorry they are you aren't happy but can do little. It all lives and dies on the return date, send it back or live with it.

I laughed reading this. It's likely true and likely a result of efforts to maintain the money flow into amazon's coffers as their competition heats up.

No way Frued is trying to pull a scam shipping used blades or unpackaged blades, its their brand and it just wouldn't be part of the their supply chain. How would Freud even get used or unpackaged blades? They have a factory with new blister packages blades coming out of it, they're not trying sneak used ones in and hope no one notices.

I hear you and agree. But could it be that Freud is just big enough to have a dedicated Amazon business wing with their own rules? (See middle manager Napoleon syndrome below.)

If you get into Amazons fulfillment services and read some of how to's for vendors, apparently they offer third party sellers the option of returning an item to inventory if it meets Amazon's standards , after Amazon inspects it. They also offer to return the item to the vendor. There are going to be fees with this and Amazon does liquidate warehouses full of skids of returned stuff so perhaps few sellers opt for it....point being they have a return to inventory path for returns.

I'm a bit surprised at this because it wasn't my understanding but also feel like it was inevitable. Good thing to know that it's now there. I'd like to hope that it's new unopened box only. But, prolly not.

The part I don't understand is every other major retain chain business I've had any involvement with or insight into simply back charges returns to the manufacturer. The manufacturing costs are a tiny fraction of the sale price, the goods get scrapped and life goes on.

My experience too.

With these freaking saw blades, I don't understand why it wouldn't be same and who the bad actor is. Mostly just curiosity at how things work..... something people like us are afflicted with!

This is where my big corporation experience kicks in. Never underestimate the potential for a self proclaimed Nepoleon Manager or Division Head to rise within the ranks of a big corporation who thinks he/she knows better than all those puckered up poop shoots on the ladder above them and all the happy smiling faces below them. Middle management Napoleons are the scourge of every big corporation because managers with narcissistic behaviours are very hard to smoke out. They are experts at saying one thing and doing another.

Think about it like a separate company run amok that just happens to be part of Amazon or Frued.

What leads me to think this way is the narrowness of the issue. My farm is in the country an hour away from anything remotely resembling a big box store. So we shop at Amazon way more than I am proud of. My wife in particular is an Amazon shopping blizzard. She gets more stuff from Amazon than you get snow flakes in a snow storm! She tells me that this has NEVER happened to her. This despite the fact that she returns a good 20% of what she buys. Our printer runs out of ink printing return labels for cryin out loud!

So how is it that you get THREE recycled parts and she has never had one? (btw, neither have I!)

My problem solving brain automatically looks for commonality. All of yours are Freud, and all tools - which she doesn't buy. So my brain asks, what is it about Frued and/or that division of tools, that is different. My Corporate instincts and experience are screaming at me - find the saw blade Napoleon and give him a very firm attitude adjustment. Then watch him and if necessary can him.

I guess, it's also possible that someone is conducting a business experiment with tightly controlled parameters to limit the damage. It's very hard to test process changes like this without actually using real customers in small scale environments. Better to lose a few Mcgyver's than an entire customer base!

Quite obviously, I could be all wet. Wouldn't be the first time. Either way, chasing the issue would find the broken process and fix it. Cuz like you, I have a really hard time accepting that this is really Amazon's new business model. Can you imagine how quickly and how hard the giant would fall if it really was?

Anyway, ordered a 4th blade, this time picked a different sku. Same size and teeth count, but a bit more money.... for their "industrial" line instead of diablo. The difference is a thicker piece of carbide so you can get more sharpenings out of it

You sharpen your carbide circular saw blades?

 

[Mcgyver]

You sharpen your carbide circular saw blades?

I have not but might try. I've got two T&CG's and they did make an attachment for doing so. I figure if I could make an attachment that was slick enough (fast and easy to do a perfect job) it shouldn't be a big deal.

You often hear the refrain about tooling not being worth sharpening which I think is a bit of BS....provided you have the grinder and batch them. What i have found is it takes a fair bit time to set up a grinder and I often have to refresh how to do it since its been awhile, but it takes seconds or maybe minutes to actually sharpen the tool. It might take me 20 minutes to sharpen one 1/2 endmill and 60 minutes to sharpen 30 sort of the thing. Or something like that. Same with small drills, with a stack of them you can get to one a minute or more (with a Christen drill grinder which is really easy to use). Even really small, i.e. 1/16, they are going to be $5 each with tax + the time and hassle of ordering. One a minute is $300 an hour.

I'm thinking same idea with saws. We'll see, I reserve the right to not bother or fail at it

 

[PeterT]

A version of this Stefan grinder/lapper is on my to do list. I think the slow RPM & fine grit# combination has usefulness around the home machine shop. Even using diamond wheels on the TCG in other vids Stefan makes mention of grinding direction & other factors, avoiding micro fracturing the edge which I'm pretty sure is going on with many offhand methods just at a scale you can't easily see. There may be easier methods for re-sharpening saw blade carbide teeth which are less critical cutting the brown stuff. I want to use it for carbide tools & eventually hand scraper edges.

BTW @Mcgyver I finally wore out reading your HSM scraping first #1 installment (my one & only edition of your series). Last week I found an Ebay sale with some complete HSM years so ordered 2011-2012. Looking forward to when they arrive. It will have to tide me over until you run your 2024 workshop course LOL.

 

[historicalarms]

Thank you for that warning. I do that a lot. It's a practice I will change immediately!

Yauup I got burnt on a new compact scope I bought for a specific rifle that I was working on but for some reason or another that project got extended much longer than anticipated. When i finaly got around to mounting that scope it wont hold "0" from one shot to another... $250 down the drain.

 

[Mcgyver]

BTW @Mcgyver I finally wore out reading your HSM scraping first #1 installment (my one & only edition of your series). Last week I found an Ebay sale with some complete HSM years so ordered 2011-2012. Looking forward to when they arrive. It will have to tide me over until you run your 2024 workshop course LOL.

Haha, Mcgyver's patent cure for worn machine tools and insomnia! Its becoming a long time ago I wrote that....not sure if I've learned a thing or two or forgotten a thing or two, maybe both lol

There was some brief entertainment during intermission..... the alignment tool article, oh so useful for scraping, almost required hardware




For any still awake Scraping Act II is coming.....Reconditioning a Lathe. Its going to cover the Schaublin 70 I've posted here (example of a instrument lathe and grinding dovetails), a Maximat 10 (box ways) and a Holbrook B8, V ways. Then I'm hanging up the Biax and building model engines.

 

[PeterT]

Looking forward to Act-II. I will be a happy man if I can ultimately accomplish some healthy portion of Act-I.

To all, these are the specific back HSM issues. I made a spreadsheet from HSM web PDF index so I can keyword search or sort... but I should go back & update last couple years since I last did it.