• Scam Alert. Members are reminded to NOT send money to buy anything. Don't buy things remote and have it shipped - go get it yourself, pay in person, and take your equipment with you. Scammers have burned people on this forum. Urgency, secrecy, excuses, selling for friend, newish members, FUD, are RED FLAGS. A video conference call is not adequate assurance. Face to face interactions are required. Please report suspicions to the forum admins. Stay Safe - anyone can get scammed.

What Ever Happened to All of the Great Canadian Machine Tool Builders?

C

carrdo

Active Member
Hi All,

Like Standard Modern (made in Toronto) and Excello (XLO, made in London, Ontario)? They could compete with the best in the world at one time. I always wanted a SM lathe or an XLO Knee mill or automatic surface grinder since I went to a technical high school and saw and used them there but couldn't afford it. I know that SM lathes were the only lathes used by the US Navy as they were the only ones who could pass the US Navy's underwater detonation test.

I am sure there were other great makes also.
 
Standard Modern is still in business, and as far as ik know, the only metal lathe company still manufacturing in North America. While Canada did loose many major machine manufacturers, it pales to the number and volume of machine companies that disappear in the U.S.
 
boilerhouse said:
Standard Modern is still in business, and as far as ik know, the only metal lathe company still manufacturing in North America. While Canada did loose many major machine manufacturers, it pales to the number and volume of machine companies that disappear in the U.S.
Click to expand...

Not sure how in business they are, and it is definitely not the same company. Prior to the current buyer, they were last operational in Mississauga and the business was for sale around 12 or 13 years ago. Still eeking by, just, but a shadow of its former self and imo liquidation value of the equipment far exceeded the value as a going concern. They were eventually bought by a group in KW. I heard they liquidated lots of equipment to pay for the purchase. It then sat dormant for years, and if SM's are for sale again, I'd guess that they are offshoring all or part of it. I'd be surprised if they were building the same quality the original firm did. Like say Southbend or Myford, just because the name is still going doesn't mean much. When I looked at it,they used quality domestic castings, had their own leadscrew mill, all gears made in house, they owned a massive way grinder, everything hand scrape scrape in etc).

Derbyshire and Levin, are still made in NA, although granted they are wee little (uber expensive) instrument/watch lathes, not engine lathes.

As to what happened to them? To make a quality machine tool here you have to sell it for $40,000+. Purchases of that sort of money shifted toward CNC and people stopped paying that much for manual machines.
 
Last edited:
carrdo said:
Hi All,

Like Standard Modern (made in Toronto) and Excello (XLO, made in London, Ontario)? They could compete with the best in the world at one time. I always wanted a SM lathe or an XLO Knee mill or automatic surface grinder since I went to a technical high school and saw and used them there but couldn't afford it. I know that SM lathes were the only lathes used by the US Navy as they were the only ones who could pass the US Navy's underwater detonation test.

I am sure there were other great makes also.
Click to expand...
I have asked that question for the last 40 years.
I apprenticed as a General Machinist at Ex-Cell-O in Clinton, Ontario.
It was a feeder plant for the larger operations in London, Ontario.

There were three sections in the Clinton plant . . .
A CNC section for on-going high volume machine tools.
A Manual section that produced custom tooling for large machine centers.
A Carbide grinding section where various inserts were polished and ground.

I believe the main reason for the ‘initial‘ closing was due to competion with off-shore and third world companies. As industrialization swept thru more countries, there were many growing companies in foreign countries that saw the opportunity to learn skills and compete with North American entities.
It takes innovation and continuous development to keep a company’s product at the TOP of the market. Improvements and redesign are expensive when it comes to precision tooling.
I have battled my way thru several process machinery ‘design-build‘ and eventual commercialization ‘life-cycles’. It is a ‘long’ and ‘stressful’ path that is guided by many factors.

Ex-Cell-O eventually was acquired by an American Military Contractor and may have had their focus turned towards weapons and military machinery.
 
My opinion is that machine manufacturers in N America and Europe have a really tough time competing against manufacturers in Asia for the following reasons

Taxes (Fed, Prov, Local)
Labour costs
Labour Laws
Health & Safety requiirements
Environmental Requirements
Energy costs (coal energy is over 50% in China and electricity is less than 1/3 what we pay).
Local infrastructure
Ownership structures
Cost of money
Unions
Government Subsidies
Working Conditions
Transportation Costs
Material Costs
Trade Barriers
Hidden Trade Barriers

Any one would be no big deal. Together, they are a formidable business barrier. I prolly forgot as many as I listed.

Asian countries fully understand the value of these jobs and this business. We simply don't. We look down our nose at these jobs when we should value them and appreciate them. Everyone wants a deal and a quick buck. Work ethics is a dying attitude.

I know. I'm too pessimistic. Someone please give me the optimistic version. I know there is one. I just can't think what it all might be right now. Doesn't help to have strept throat right now and decidedly miserable.
 
Susquatch said:
My opinion is that machine manufacturers in N America and Europe have a really tough time competing against manufacturers in Asia for the following reasons

Taxes (Fed, Prov, Local)
Labour costs
Labour Laws
Health & Safety requiirements
Environmental Requirements
Energy costs (coal energy is over 50% in China and electricity is less than 1/3 what we pay).
Local infrastructure
Ownership structures
Cost of money
Unions
Government Subsidies
Working Conditions
Transportation Costs
Material Costs
Trade Barriers
Hidden Trade Barriers

Any one would be no big deal. Together, they are a formidable business barrier. I prolly forgot as many as I listed.

Asian countries fully understand the value of these jobs and this business. We simply don't. We look down our nose at these jobs when we should value them and appreciate them. Everyone wants a deal and a quick buck. Work ethics is a dying attitude.

I know. I'm too pessimistic. Someone please give me the optimistic version. I know there is one. I just can't think what it all might be right now. Doesn't help to have strept throat right now and decidedly miserable.
Click to expand...
You have nailed it. When people are jealous of anyone making a profit, and it's evil twins resentment and greed rears its horned head, they vote for governments that will find ways to drive those people out. We are victims of our own success.
 
Unfortunately it's not just the machine industry, same thing applies to the electronics industry and probably a lot more. I do applaud the forward thinking South of us for building new local semiconductor plants. In general I think we will pay a staggering price for too many short term objectives.
 
What, you mean it doesn't work if everyone is a burger flipper or investment banker?

I left professional services and went into manufacturing more than a decade ago. While better for my soul, its a proven to be a big economic mistake. I'm surviving, but I should have stayed in professional services and not invested in manufacturing.

Long term I think things fall apart if everyone is a burger flipper or investment banker, imo you need manufacturing to carry a strong skills based middle class. The resource sector provides this to some degree (yeah great, but so much of that is foreign owned now we're just the raw material supply cupboard to the world) , but not everyone can work in the resource sector; how does an urbanite have hope for the future when there are only low wage tow motor jobs at warehouses or delivery jobs? otoh, things are really stacked against you manufacturing in this country.

We rarely see a law maker who has had to succeed in business let alone in manufacturing. So they pander to the beliefs of the masses and things are unlikely to improve.

Dim thoughts for a Saturday morning ..... I better go get in the shop and cheer myself up!
 
Last edited:
Ironman said:
You have nailed it. When people are jealous of anyone making a profit, and it's evil twins resentment and greed rears its horned head, they vote for governments that will find ways to drive those people out. We are victims of our own success.
Click to expand...
Nailed it again !
My wife and I ran our own business 35+ years - moderately successful - but when you have some success, you also become a target for jealousy, resentment etc.
Biggest reason I see though is far lower input costs in general in the Asian countries - and there's over a Billion new competitors in the labor market.
 
carrdo said:
Hi All,

Like Standard Modern (made in Toronto) and Excello (XLO, made in London, Ontario)? They could compete with the best in the world at one time. I always wanted a SM lathe or an XLO Knee mill or automatic surface grinder since I went to a technical high school and saw and used them there but couldn't afford it. I know that SM lathes were the only lathes used by the US Navy as they were the only ones who could pass the US Navy's underwater detonation test.

I am sure there were other great makes also.
Click to expand...
NAFTA

Then once mexico wasn't profitable as deemed required then offshoring manufacturing to china.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top